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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 702
Location: Arizona
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 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: How Were People in the Old Testament Saved? |
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| JimD wrote: | "I believe the tree of life represents Jesus (or, God), for what other tree can we eat from and live? If this is true, then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil must represent the law ('thou shall not'). If these deductions are true, then the account in Genesis is really about a belief in God versus a belief in works.
I need to ask you guys a question: Were people in the Old Testament saved differently than we are? |
Jim, we took the liberty to bring this topic onto another thread, as per your suggestion. We believe it is an excellent question, worthy of our consideration.
My wife and I have always seen two ways of doing things contrasted in Scripture: God's way of doing things and our way of doing things. For example, the two trees in the garden, the broad and narrow gates, light and dark, the law of God and the law of sin and death, etc. It seems there are always only two ways contrasted in Scripture - His way and our way. And we have to choose which way we will follow.
That's how we've always interpreted the two trees in the garden: the tree of life represented man trusting God for his sustenance and learning, while the tree of knowledge of good and evil represented man not trusting God and depending on himself for sustenance and learning. One is based on trusting God, while the other is based on trusting ourselves.
And, as for the question, Were people in the Old Testament saved differently than we are? my wife and I have long understood that people in the Old Testament (from Adam to John the Baptist and everyone in between) were saved by trusting in God's grace. Where else would Paul have gotten the idea for Ephesians 2:8, if not from Scripture?
See Malachi 3:6, for example. |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: How Were People in the Old Testament Saved? |
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| Quote: | | GC said:my wife and I have long understood that people in the Old Testament (from Adam to John the Baptist and everyone in between) were saved by trusting in God's grace. Where else would Paul have gotten the idea for Ephesians 2:8, if not from Scripture? See Malachi 3:6 for example. |
Thank you for your post GC. I agree. But why did you stop at John the Baptist?
The redeemer was promised by God from the beginning, What God promises is as good as done. So weren't the Old Testament faithful saved by the grace of God through Jesus whether they knew it or not? Isn't the time in history at which Jesus came irrelevant as far as salvation goes? Jesus died for their sins as well as ours. Their sacrifices offerings, and works did not save them any more than ours does. I think Heb. 3&4 speak to this issue rather plainly, "they had the gospel the same as we". What else could this mean?
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1072
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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GospelCompilation / JimD
Thanks for the posts.
GC,
You said:
And, as for the question, Were people in the Old Testament saved differently than we are? my wife and I have long understood that people in the Old Testament (from Adam to John the Baptist and everyone in between) were saved by trusting in God's grace. Where else would Paul have gotten the idea for Ephesians 2:8, if not from Scripture?
There are differences between the Old Testament and New, but in no way do they influence the terms laid out by God for salvation. We need to turn towards Him/we need to change our minds.
The question then becomes, since we cannot save ourselves, how do we change our minds? What does the Old Testament say about that? Is there some mystical event that takes place in the Old Testament that prompts us to turn from our personal desire and seek Him with all our hearts?
Since I believe that the first sin in the Old Testament was Adam and Eve choosing to turn from God, then I have to believe that the first act in redemption is to turn towards Him. The scriptures makes for some complications since in the New testament we see that we have no power to do so. It is the act of God.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
What are your thoughts?
JB |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Your turn GospelCompilation:
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1072
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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In the New Testament we seem to see scriptures that tend to suggest that salvation was available apart from receiving the Holy Spirit.
Here is an example:
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
they believed but they hadn't yet received the Holy Spirit.
I believe that these people were saved apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
In Matthew 17 we see that Peter experienced the revelation of God when he said, Thou art Christ the Son of the living God. Peter didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.
I believe that GospelCompilation was right when he said that salvation begins in the mind.
JB |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | JB said:In Matthew 17 we see that Peter experienced the revelation of God when he said, Thou art Christ the Son of the living God. Peter didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. |
Some have said that Peter and others already had the normal indwelling of the Holy Spirit, from the day they first trusted in God, certainly from the day you are referring to, do you remember when Jesus was thanking God for giving him the apostles, and he said they already belonged to God, oops, wonder where this conversation is going? Any way, many believe that Pentecost was a special, and temporary work of the Holy Spirit that only happened in a similar way once or twice more in the New Testament. Of course there were many other special works of the Spirit but these were not guaranteed to be repeated. Do you remember, Paul left a beloved brother somewhere because he was sick? It does make a lot of sense that there is a normal infilling , as well as special.
| Quote: | | JB said:I believe that GospelCompilation was right when he said that salvation begins in the mind. |
Of course it does, and it is not a work.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1072
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
I know that you and I disagree on the works of the Holy Spirit. We will probably never agree on this point and that is fine. But my point is this. Does the change of mind take place apart from the moving of the Holy Spirit?
JB |
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JB
Lion King
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 1072
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
After thinking about this thread, I believe that for both our sakes, I should abandon any further discussion on this topic. I enjoy your fellowship and don't want to post anything that might affect it.
JB |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | JB said: I know that you and I disagree on the works of the Holy Spirit. We will probably never agree on this point and that is fine. But my point is this. Does the change of mind take place apart from the moving of the Holy Spirit? |
As far as I can tell, the Holy Spirit is moving within us from conception on, we are born with the Spirit of God within us, otherwise we would be stillborn. God is drawing all men to himself from day one. But we all fall away, its not until our mind heart and soul grasp the fact that we have abandoned him, and we flee back into his arms that we are saved, born again. I realize you, and most of the religious world do not see it this way, and that does not offend me.
Actually, the only things that do offend me are when you come on with the attitude that you cannot be wrong, and when someone, like Yehu, or MoJo comes into the conversation, and you seem to suck up to them, and make fun of me. I know you probably do not realize or agree that you do this but for the sake of getting along, I just thought you might like to know how I see it.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 702
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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My wife wanted me to interject something here, so bare with me while I dictate her thoughts...
My wife says, "My husband and I have been participating in these forums for only a few weeks now, but in that short time we've grown to appreciate many of the folks on here. That is especially true of JB and JimD. I personally have enjoyed their input and everyday I look forward to hearing their thoughts.
"But sometimes it sounds like their feelings have been hurt, and they get sucked into a cycle of hurting that spoils their interaction with one another. This breaks my heart, because these are two great men of God, with wonderful hearts for the Lord, who articulate their thoughts well, using their gifts to encourage and inspire their fellow Christians.
"Whatever it is you two don't agree with... it's okay. Life will not suddenly cease because you don't see eye to eye on a particular subject. There are many points of doctrine wherein my husband and I don't necessary agree, but we still love one another and we still wrestle with those issues together, because we want to know God's truth... not our truth.
"So, we both recognize that (most likely) we are both wrong on the subject, and neither of us will know the truth for sure until we meet our Savior face to face. That helps us stay humble. And it helps us keep a proper perspective when we debate the more difficult issues in God's Word.
"So... if you guys can't discuss this issue with each other in love (at least, at this point in time), that's okay. Just talk to my husband and I. Share your thoughts. Let's compare experiences. And let's dig really deep and drink heavily of God's living water, so that we might understand Him and His way to live. In my humble opinion, that should be our only objective on this forum."
Wow... that's the most I've heard her say in over a year! But I agree with her, guys... if this subject is a tender spot for you to discuss with one another, then just talk to us, and don't try to correct one another. When you talk, we'll listen... and when we talk, you listen. And let's just accept the fact that each of us are at a different point in our walks with God. And the best part is: our ideas will change, as we wrestle with our Father; and we'll learn better ways to say what we're thinking and feeling.
But listen to what my wife has said: you two are wonderful men of God, and it's our great joy to get on these forum everyday and listen to your thoughts... whether we agree with them, or not. We just enjoy fellowshipping with you. With both of you. |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: |
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GC and Wife, my thoughts, and feelings are mutual for you.
I think JB, and I are in the process of working things out, we shall see.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the theology of my last post, whether we agree or not  Also the one you made about John the Baptist, why did you stop with him?
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD
Last edited by JimD on Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 702
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | "As far as I can tell, the Holy Spirit is moving within us from conception on, we are born with the Spirit of God within us, otherwise we would be stillborn. God is drawing all men to himself from day one." |
Actually, Jim, this is exactly how my wife and I see, too.
THE SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE
We look at Genesis 2:7 and see God breathing His Spirit into man, making him a living soul. We look at Job 34:14-15 and see that if God were to take back His Spirit (that is, His breath), everyone would immediately perish and return to dust. And we look at Acts 17:28 and see God actually physically holding us (and all of creation) together - we believe, by His Spirit.
THE EVIDENCE OF PHYSICS
To put it in physics terminology, we believe that God's Spirit is the cohesive force that holds everything together. For example, Colossians 1:17 tells us that it is "in Him" that all things hold together. One of the key words in this verse (the "all things hold together" part) is the Greek word sunistemi which means "to stand-together," "to be compacted together," "to cohere," "to be constituted with." We see this implicating the structure of the atom. As we all know, mutual electrostatic repulsion between the like-positive protons would drive the nucleus apart, if it were not for the mysterious, invisible "strong force" which binds the nucleus together.
My wife and I believe that "strong force" is God's Spirit.
Why do we believe that? Because II Peter 3:10 tells us that when the Day of the Lord comes, the heavens will pass away with a loud noise and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up."
The Greek word translated "elements" in this verse is stoicheion, which implicates the "building blocks of the universe," or (as it is often translated in modern language) "the ordered arrangement of things." My wife and I believe this word refers to the "atomic elements."
Meanwhile, the word translated "dissolved" (luo) means "to unloose." We see this as a "letting-go" (a "loosing") of the strong force that holds the nucleus together. So we see this verse (and others) as evidence that the active power of God (or, His Spirit) is behind the mysterious "strong force" that holds every atomic nucleus together.
Including our own nuclei. Which leads us to believe that God's Spirit is literally inside each and every one of us - holding us together, moving within us, influencing us at the very core of our being.
WE SIMPLY NEED TO BECOME AWARE
Therefore, my wife and I believe we have to have the holy Spirit inside us in order for us to exist. And, since we already have it within us, all we need to do is become aware of it and allow it to transform our thinking.
Of course, we say all this with the understanding that we could be (and probably are) completely wrong. But that's how we understand it at this point. We look forward to hearing your thoughts. |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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GC, and wife, all I can say at this point is, awesome, absolutely awesome thinking and attitude.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | GC, and WIFE said:We look at Genesis 2:7 and see God breathing His Spirit into man, making him a living soul. We look at Job 34:14-15 and see that if God were to take back His Spirit (that is, His breath), everyone would immediately perish and return to dust. |
Ec 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
This has always been a very interesting statement, in conjunction with Genesis 2:7 but most do not agree that breath of life, and Holy Spirit have basicely the same meaning, I think Holy Spirit builds on breath of life, spirit of life. I have to go right now, talk with you later. God Bless
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 702
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | "Most do not agree that breath of life, and Holy Spirit have basically the same meaning." |
We agree with your assessment, that most people believe that God's Spirit and God's Breath are two different things. Here is our understanding of it:
HEBREW AND GREEK AGREE
The Hebrew word ruach can be translated as "breath, spirit, or wind," depending on its context. The Greek word pnuema can be translated as "breath, spirit, or wind," depending on its context. The question is... whose context?
THEY ARE THE SAME THING
Because, either way we cut it, God's ruach is God's ruach. Or, we could say, Gods pneuma is God's pneuma. We can't make a distinction between His ruach and His ruach. We can't make a distinction between His pneuma and His pneuma. God's breath and God's Spirit are the same word. Therefore, God's breath and God's Spirit are the same thing. And there's no way around that fact.
The only reason God's Spirit is called "holy" is because God is holy - therefore, everything about Him is holy, including His Spirit. But, the interesting part is, we could translate the phrase to say, "God's holy Breath," just as easily as we say, "God's holy Spirit." It's the same word translated two different ways, so the two different words represent the exact same thing.
God's breath is God's Spirit and vice versa. |
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