How Were People in the Old Testament Saved?

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1075

GospelCompilation,

I went back to the Greek LXX and this is what I found in regards to Genesis 2:7.

Since I have very little knowledge of the Hebrew, I rely on the LXX for Old Testament parsing.

kai eplasen o qeos ton anqrwpon coun apo thv ghv kai enefushsen eiv to proswpon autou pnohn zwhv kai egeneto o anqrwpoV eiV yuchn zwsan

And God formed the dust person from the earth - and breathed into his face a breath of life. And the person became a living soul.

If God had breathed into him physically, the proper Greek word would have been en. That isn't the case.

The Old Testament also offers another idea about the breath. It was the giving of the human soul.

Here is a Hebrew break down from a site I frequent.

Word study

1) The letter waw, means and. Verb yasar means fashion, form. It differs from bara, to create (Gen 1:1) and asa, to make or do (Gen 1:16). This word is used when something is made from something else (for instance a jar from clay).

2) YHWH Elohim: The second creation Name of God. See our article on that Name in the Name Vault

3) Et-ha-adam. The particle et is usually not translated. It's a grammatical label, denoting either the accusative, or a proximity. The letter ha is like our word the, although it is much rarer. It stresses the subject. Adam means man in the sense of being a corporeal being. The adjacent word adamah (here number 6) means acre or arable ground.

4) Apar is the common word for dry, fine crumbs of earth.

5) The preposition min means from, but generally indicates a separation. The phrase "dust from the ground" does not simply mean earth-dust, but dust taken from the earth. In Genesis 2:6 the same word is used when we see a mist rise from the earth.

6) Adamah is the feminine derivation of the root 'dm of which adam is the masculine word. It means ground, acre or arable ground.

7) Again the letter waw, meaning and. The verb napah means breathe, breathe out, blow.

8) The letter beth means in. Ap means nose or nostril, and comes from the root anep, meaning anger, possibly because anger is shown by violently breathing or snorting.

9) The word neshama is usually translated with breath, although it indicates a typical sign of life, much rather than the mechanical intake of air. Sometimes it is even translated with mind or spirit.

10) Hayim is the general word for life, or living.

11) Again the letter waw, meaning and. The verb haya is the regular word for to be, but it must be stressed that the Hebrew reckons being after behavior. For a closer look at to be in Hebrew, take a brief detour to our article to be is to do.

12) Same as 3.

13) The particle lamed (to, at, for) indicates direction or location. Instances that this particle may denote a transition are highly debatable. Commonly a relation is indicated between an object and something else. Even in the 1 Cor 15:45 quote, the particle eis, a particle with the primary idea of motion into or towards a thing, is generally ignored:

14) The word nepesh denotes the difficult concept of soul or even appetite, yearning or craving. Perhaps this word most fundamentally indicates the difference between living things and inanimate things: the having of a preference, and the ability to act upon it. We claim that Genesis 2:7 tells about the making of a primary unit or building block for the realm of life (see our article on the Chaotic Set Theory. The preceding realm, that of matter, has energy for a soul, which existed before the initiation of the primary unit we call the atom. The succeeding realm, that of mind, has the conscious creature as unit, and multicellular sub-consciousness existed before its initiation in closely knitted communities of single-cellular organisms. The fourth realm is the realm of Christ, which will begin at the Second Coming, and which was preceded by the outpour of the Holy Spirit. Likewise is life initiated in the material realm (day five), long before its primary unit is established in Adam2:7 .

15) Same as 11.

Hence we have:
Genesis 2:7, "And YHWH Elohim made the earthling a building block and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and he became the earthling for the life soul "

There seems to be a difference between your idea and that of the LXX and this particular translator. I doubt highly that God breathed into man but more likely upon man. (eis)

JB

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1075

GospelCompilation'

You said:

The Hebrew word ruach can be translated as "breath, spirit, or wind,"

This is true, but in Genesis 2:7 ruach wasn't used. Is there another word for ruach that means the same thing?

I keep studying this and I don't find any thing that leads me to the Spirit that moved over the face of the deep, only this word and definition:

n@shamah {nesh-aw-maw'}
Word Origin:
from 5395
TWOT:
1433a
Part of Speech:
noun feminine
Usage in the KJV:
breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1

Total: 24
Definition:

1. breath, spirit
1. breath (of God)
2. breath (of man)
3. every breathing thing
4. spirit (of man)

If you could would share how you arrived at ruach, I would appreciate it.

JB

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630

The following is from the International Standard Bible Dictionary : Ezk 37:5,6,8,9,10). The examples cited, however, and other passages reveal a lack of uniformity of usage. Yet generally XAwRis the expression, HMÆŠÆNi,the principle, of life. Yet when employed of God they of course signify the principle, not of His own life, but of that imparted to His creatures. “Breathe” in EV of the OT requires no remark except at Ps 27:12 (“such as breathe out cruelty”), from XPÁYF,“to breathe hard,” “to snort” (compare Acts 9:1). In the NT “breath” pnohÉ occurs once Acts 17:25 in the plain sense of vital principle, the gift of God. “Breathed” is employed in Jn 20:22 of our Lord’s concrete symbolism of the giving of the Spirit. to His disciples (Mt 28:19). As the agent in redemption and sanctification His work is glorified by lives “renewed” in the very “spirit of the mind” — a collocation of terms which has puzzled many interpreters (Eph 4:23,24), where pneuma and nous appear together, to indicate a renewal which is all-embracing, `renewed in the spirit of your mind, so that the new man is put on, created in righteousness and true holiness’ (see also Jn 14:17,26; 15:26; 16:13; 1 Cor 12:11, etc.).
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630

Drawing from all available resources available, it seems to me that, one body, and one spirit equal one soul. As I read the scripture with this in mind, it makes sense about 98% of the time.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

GospelCompilation · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject:

MoJo · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject:

Don't know if this helps, but according to Ezekial which uses the same word for breath, interpretation would indicate this is the same thing as the Holy Spirit.

Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 ¶ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14 **And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, ** (the breath that breathed on them that they may live in verse 9 ) and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

You will also notice that verse 9 says breathe upon, but verse 10 says **into** and 14 says *put my spirit **in** you* effectively making "upon" and "into" and "in" all the same thing.

Smile

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1075

GospelCompilation,

You said: "My wife wants to know"

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630

God is sitting in Heaven when a scientist says to Him, "Lord, we
don't need you anymore. Science has finally figured out a way to
create life out of nothing.

In other words, we can now do what you did in the 'beginning'."

"Oh, is that so? Tell me..." replies God.

"Well", says the scientist, "we can take dirt and form it into
the likeness of you and breathe life into it, thus creating man."

"Well, that's interesting. Show Me."

So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the
soil.

"Oh no, no, no..." interrupts God,

"Get your own dirt."
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

GospelCompilation · Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:52 am Post subject:

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1075

GospelCompilation,

I see you have been digging. That is good. I will get back to you on this one because it will take some time and I will probably address each text that you quoted individually in individual posts.

By the way, this is a great discussion.

JB

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1075

Mojo,

The discussion is on The work Of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. Ezekiel 37 clearly point to an end time event, when the children of Israel are gathered together once again. My argument is that only Prophets Priests and kings and sometimes judges experienced the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and the Spirit came upon them, not in them.

Ezekiel 37 is a promise to Israel after the death and resurrection of Christ.

JB