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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1044
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: |
Not only has the Trinitarian Roman Church been responsible for untold human carnage, every nation that claims to be Christian has been invovled in wars and bloodshed amongst themselves for the last thousand years: Rome, Italy, British Empire, France, Germany, Poland, Norway, Spain, Greece, and the United States,you name it.
Illogical? I don't think so. |
Well, this seems to be the standard argument. The problems that I see with your argument are the following:
1. First, and most obviously, you have conflated Trinitarianism with Catholicism. Catholics may be trinitarian, but not all trinitarians are Catholic. Obviously.
2. Second, there is a logical fallacy in your argument. The fact that a person who is responsible for carnage may be Catholic/trinitarian does not logically imply that the Catholic faith/trinitarianism is the cause of the carnage. To illustrate that let me give you an alternative version of the argument:
| Quote: | | Not only has civilization been responsible for untold human carnage, every nation that claims to be civilized has been involved in wars and bloodshed amongst themselves for the last thousand years: Rome, Italy, British Empire, France, Germany, Poland, Norway, Spain, Greece, and the United States,you name it. |
I claim that this statement is at least as true as yours. If your argument is valid, then civilization itself is on the path to perdition. Do you wish to claim this?
3. Your argument tars every member of a group with the same brush. The argument goes as follows. "Members of group X have committed crimes. Joe Blow is a member of group X. Therefore Joe Blow has committed crimes (or must accept responsibility for the crimes)." Substitute your group of choice, based on color, creed or ethnicity.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Getting back to "the offense of the cross".
According to Deuteronomy21:23b | Quote: | | anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. |
The stigma of being crucified was the issue. Modern day people just don't get the horrible social outcast nature of the punishment. Christians of course have romanticized it and purified it of all it's horrible nature and that is why we have this lack of knowledge about the "offense of the cross".
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1044
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Your point is a good one, 45. We can lose touch with the original resonance that was created by a symbols such as the cross. For the average Roman, the cross had very different connotations, and Christianity was bizarre to say the least. Perhaps the modern equivalent would be a group of people meeting in secret whose sacred symbols included a noose or a syringe for lethal injections.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Well Jesus was convicted by the Jews as a blasphemer, and by Rome as well. In the world's eyes he was a convict.
That is how he shamed their authorities, and took possession of their systems once and for all. If you look closely at the trial in their courts, you'll see that the office holders were shown to be impostors to those positions.
Jesus destroyed their claims to office, and established Himself as the Lord of all secular authority - Jewish and Roman.
This is why it's such a shame to see pastors today teaching people to believe in those very same officers that Jesus discredited. In fact, they base their theology on that pagan, carnal idea. And to defend this claim, they call on "respect for authority" even though Jesus is the one who destroyed the legitimacy of those authorities. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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I agree, great point, 45.
| Plotinus wrote: | | Perhaps the modern equivalent would be a group of people meeting in secret whose sacred symbols included a noose or a syringe for lethal injections. |
Yes. I don't even know if in modern times we have anything that corresponds. We allow even the worst offenders to die with dignity. Jesus was stripped naked and hung up to die as the crowd jeered and mocked.
Your point that Christianity was bizarre is very good, Plotinus. I'd never thought about it. Such a shameful, ignominious death. And the early believers boasted in it, and spoke of its power. They claimed that their salvation and their hope of eternal life was through the power of Christ crucified. No wonder it seemed foolishness to many back then.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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It does take courage to realize that Jesus was "tried in a court of law and convicted". He was sentenced with capital punishment by the false governments, which ruled the earth at that time. And the reason for this is that they saw Him as someone worthy of death. The world sees Jesus, and all His followers as not being worth keeping alive. "Better off killing them, since they are just a torment and misery, and a destruction to life and happiness" - that's how the world sees Jesus and His followers.
But the power of the truth, which Jesus established through His ministry, is our power to turn the world to the side of truth. For this reason it is prophesied that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus the Christ is Lord. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | It does take courage to realize that Jesus was "tried in a court of law and convicted". He was sentenced with capital punishment by the false governments, which ruled the earth at that time. And the reason for this is that they saw Him as someone worthy of death. The world sees Jesus, and all His followers as not being worth keeping alive. "Better off killing them, since they are just a torment and misery, and a destruction to life and happiness" - that's how the world sees Jesus and His followers.
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Virbate, I'm a little confused as to where you got this.
Pilate said, I see no fault in this man.
As for the last part of your post. Whom are you quoting?
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Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | It does take courage to realize that Jesus was "tried in a court of law and convicted". He was sentenced with capital punishment by the false governments, which ruled the earth at that time. And the reason for this is that they saw Him as someone worthy of death. The world sees Jesus, and all His followers as not being worth keeping alive. "Better off killing them, since they are just a torment and misery, and a destruction to life and happiness" - that's how the world sees Jesus and His followers.
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Virbate, I'm a little confused as to where you got this.
Pilate said, I see no fault in this man.
As for the last part of your post. Whom are you quoting? |
I wasn't quoting anyone. I used uplifted commas to show that it wasn't me saying those things...
Pilate saw no fault in Jesus as far as the official laws of his organization. But according to the full law of his organization, Pilate's opinion is not the last word. Actually Pilate was a slave to the system of Babylon, even though he had a position of power. His word is not the law of Babylon, but he has only limited wiggle room within the restrictions of Babylon's law. He did not have the authority to stop Babylon's judgment on Jesus.
As a citizen of Babylon, Pilate saw Jesus' conviction as expedient and correct. This is the whole picture, even though he stated clearly that Jesus had not broken any of Babylon's written laws. Maybe you need to think about the difference between the written law and full law in Babylon. For example where I live they post 45 mph on the highway, but all the locals know you can drive up to 50 with impunity. So what's the real law? Also, if you go over 75, they have a no follow policy, for safety reasons.
Everyone on earth at that time except for Jesus was a citizen, or slave of Babylon. Peter and all the other disciples betrayed Him. We all agreed that His body should die. Even God agreed with this. Isn't that true? |
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