Eternal Redemption

GospelCompilation · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:22 am Post subject:

While I mostly agree with everyone's comments that we are not saved by our works, how do we explain these verses?

Job 34:11: "For God Almighty repays man according to his work."

Psalm 62:12: "Power and mercy belong to You, Yahweh; for You reward each one according to his works."

Proverbs 24:12: "He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not reward each man according to his deeds?"

Matthew 12:37: "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

James 2:14-25: "What does it profit if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith alone save him [The obvious answer is, NO, faith alone cannot save us]? Thus by itself (that is, without works), faith is dead. Let me say it again: faith without works is dead. Even Abraham our father was justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. His faith worked together with his works, and his faith was made perfect by his works. So, you see, a man is not justified by faith alone, but also by his works. Just as Rahab the harlot was justified by her works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way."

Revelation 2:23: "I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works."

Revelation 20:12-13: "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life, and the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works."

Revelation 22:12: "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."

And I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find more just like these - as well as underlying principles within many of the stories.

So, how do we explain these verses, which seem pretty clear in their meaning, when they appear to contradict everything we believe in?

golfjack · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: reply

Jesus Christ took upon Himself our sin nature. Hebrews 9:26 says He.. put away sin ( not sins) by the sacrifice of Himself. He took upon Himself our sin nature, the nature of spiritual death that we might have Eternal Life.

Sadly, many Christians don't know they are born of God, and that they have received Eternal Life ( the life and nature of God). They think Eternal Life is something they are going to have when they get to heaven. Many think they have simply received forgiveness of sins.

If we have just been taught that our sins are forgiven and that we will remain justified only if we walk carefully before God, and we have never been taught that the nature and substance of God is within our spirits, then sin and Satan will continue to reign over us.

But when we know that the man on the inside, the real man, has been born again and is a new self in Christ Jesus, then we will rule and reign over Satan.

Peace, Golfjack

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630

Why does it have to be one or the other, can't we just see that they work together? It's just like a marriage, when we are married it's for life but it takes a lifetime of submission commitment and work, if these do not follow, there will be a divorce, guaranteed, whether it;s on paper or not.
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1075

GospelCompilation,

Salvation isn't just about being forgiven, it is about being changed by the power of God. I am a member of another forum and they are hardcore Calvinists. They are the first to preach obedience and works. Not as a securing of salvation but because they believe that the salvation process is bringing us back to the original Adam prior to the fall.

in Philippians 2 we read, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". That has nothjing to do with salvation but it has every thing to do with sanctification.

JB

Nobby · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:

golfjack · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: reply

I agree with you Nobby, but we must remember that if one does lose their salvation, they can never get it back because Jesus died on the cross one time. Also, my Bible tells me that one must be Spirit-filled, mature, and deliberately tell Jesus to leave their lives. It is not sins that can make one lose their salvation, but one sin ( unforgivable) ( Heb. 10:26:30). to qualify see Heb. 6:4-6. In seventy years of ministry, the late Kenneth Hagin said this happened only three times in his ministry. Hagin also had a open vision, and Jesus explained it is possible to lose one's salvation.

Gospel, Sanctification is a process. But, the Bible says we are complete in Christ. It is our recreated spirits that is complete. Our souls, as James says, are in the process of being saved. James also says the Word of God saves the soul. What is the soul of man? It is our emotions, intellect, and will. Hope this helps.

Peace, Golfjack

Nobby · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject:

Nobby · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject:

Hi golfjack, that's also what my bible says.
If you tell Jesus & the Holy Spirit to leave your life They will, that would be the unforgivable sin! Sad

I can't imagine going thru that! God forbid! Sad

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Much Love Nobby
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ChristianWoman1 · Labrador Joined: 22 May 2008 Posts: 300

Zathrus · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:34 am Post subject:

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

I think that no matter how many times the Bible says "Eternal salvation", it will not be able to prove to the doubters that the Bible does indeed mean that phrase in the sense of the "eternal security" doctrine being taught in churches today.

They will say "there is eternal salvation for those who 'endure to the end'". But that does not mean that everyone who is a Christian today will actually last forever on the "narrow road".

It has become so clear to me, the more I think about it, that this is simply a case of people who use words differently. You're talking about two different definitions of "Christian" to begin with. They talking about a religion, - which obviously would mean it can change - and you are talking about an eternal state of being, which can never change.

The Bible can really be read in different ways. I think that most of us haven't really thought about what that means. People are actually reading something different to what you are reading, and they are trained to think of the Bible in those "different" terms. So when you say how you see it, it sounds to them like something totally bizarre that someone just made up.

This is why we just CANNOT reach people by discussing doctrines according to the false world's traditions of debating. We have to talk ONLY about a relationship with God.

You can only talk about doctrines after you have established a common ground and understanding of key points, but we often get caught up in a rush, and forget to build the groundwork. That's why so much arguing, and it's really taking up precious time, I'm sure we all agree.

There is only one solution to this confusion - we need a universal language that allows us to discuss the higher realm in words, clearly articulated. You can only teach the Bible to someone who can understand you. So the Bible is not going to work as a tool, unless we can first establish that common ground so that we can speak to each other.

Zathrus · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject:

Zathrus · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject:

Virbate · Rattlesnake Joined: 20 May 2008 Posts: 436

There is a language that God teaches us. It is predicated on Himself, and each word/phrase/figure of speech describes Him, and is based on the Faith, and the Way.

Among all the languages of the earth, each is based on the predicate of experience in the material world. But the language of the Kingdom is based on the experience of Faith, through the Holy Spirit.

Whenever someone speaks of the faith, they are speaking in the Holy Language. But due to the fact that the nation of God remains scattered throughout the earth and is not established as a real political entity, with its own land, laws and culture, our language is similarly divided. Our people are usually forced to speak the language of the false system that rules the world. Therefore we allude to our culture and to our nation, but do not usually state outright who we are.

The true language begins with God, and looking around, calling things and life what they are, in God.

It is the preachers and misleaders of the churches who keep us away from the unity we need by promoting division when they always argue about doctrine. They keep the children of God trapped in the maze of thinking in terms of doctrine, according to the false system that runs the world. But they do not allow the true culture of God's nation, to speak predicated on the reality of God only.

It's hard to explain, unless you work with me to help figure it out... Basically, it's like this. God works from within the heart. So the language of God is predicated on the heart, and a personal relationship. We see everything in terms of the personal relationship we have with God. But the false system sees things as things in and of themselves, which is an illusion. We know what things are, and we know what we say when we say things. Our words are precise, and defined according to God's word. But the false system's language tries to define things in their own terms, and all their words are therefore false.

For example, when I say "tree", I know it is the tree that God made. It is a spiritual thing to me, and exists in the spiritual realm, which is the realm in which I live. But the false system says it is a tree, and they are lying, because they do not know what it is according to any context that is relevant to real life. So they go about in a daze, because nothing for them makes sense, since their context is shifting sands. But my context, and the language in which I learn to think, is of God. It is the rock.

Don't want to talk forever... does that mean anything to you, what I have said so far?

Basically, the false system and its language are why people constantly misinterpret the Bible, and the faith, as something that can be contemplated in carnal terms. That's why they always go legalistic, either in one direction or the other. Their thoughts are dead and empty because of a carnal frame of reference. Hence their language is one of laws, and arguments, and philosophies - all carnal. But my world is of divine reality - divine laws, which are a totally different concept from carnal laws; divine arguments (revelations), which are totally different from what carnal thinkers talk about when they talk about arguments or revelations... and so on.

The sounds, or writing the words are the same in most cases, but for us the context is God. For those who speak mumbo jumbo, their context is emptiness. They talk about nothing, but we talk about what we know.

JimD · Bear Cub Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 630