Is Jesus God or God's son?

Wolvo · Alley Cat Joined: 06 Jul 2008 Posts: 181

Thanks for your comments so far on this.

I can go with the reasoning that Jesus is divine and that he can be prayed to. But where it loses me is when people start explaining at length how the trinity works.

For me this is all conjecture. I cannot see how Jesus is God, that for me would put him equal with the father. But at the same time he must be divine for being God's son.

Geoff · Tadpole Joined: 28 May 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Australia

Hello Wolvo.
Hope you don't mind me replying to your last comment.

habeshaw · Growing Guppy Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 41

Hi Wolvo,
I am going to say that Jesus is God and there is no other God besides Him.
Since you belive that there is only one God, I am going to show you that, that God is Jesus Christ.

(1) (Rom. 9:5): St. Paul the Apostle said in his discourse about the Jews: "and from whom, according to the flesh,Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." The phrase 'over all ' gives power to Christ's Divinity;

(2) (John 20:28): When Thomas said to the Lord: "My Lord and my God!", the Lord Jesus Christ accepted the title

(3) (John 1:1): "In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word become Flesh." where (Rev. 19:13): says "He(Jesus) was clothed with a robe dipped in
blood, and His name is called The Word of God."

(4) (Matt. 1:23): The angel was referring to Isaiah's
prophecy: "'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and bear a
Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel" which is
translated, 'God with us"'.

(5) (Is. 9:6): "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

(6) (Heb. 1:7,8): When St. Paul the Apostle explained how the Lord Jesus Christ is greater than the angels, he said: "And of the angels He says: 'Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. 'But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, 0 God, is for ever and ever. ' "

(7) (1 Tim. 3:16): "And without controversy great is the
mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory. "

(8) (Col. 2:9): St. Paul the Apostle says about the Lord
Jesus Christ: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the
Godhead bodily. "

(9) (Acts 20:28): "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

(10) "All things were made through Him(Word), and without Him nothing was made that was made."

(11) (Heb. 1:2): St. Paul the Apostle says: "He(Jesus) made the worlds."

(12) (Col. 1: 16): St. Paul also says: "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

(13) (1 Cor.8:6): The Apostle also says: "... through whom(Jesus) are all things and through whom we live."

(14) The Lord Jesus Christ said: "I and My Father are One" (John 10:30),

(15) "I am the Root and the Offspring of David" Rev.22:16).

(16) "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

(17) Jesus is the First and Last :
The Book of Revelation says: "Behold, He is coming
with clouds, and every eye will see Him, and they also who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn
because of Him. Even so, Amen. 'I am the Alpha and the
Omega, the beginning and the end', says the Lord, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty'" (Rev 1:7,8).

(18) Jesus is the First and Last :
"And when I saw Him, {I fell at His feet as dead}. But
He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, 'Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives and was dead and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen" (Rev.1:17).

(19) He(Jesus) says to His believers: "For where
two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them"(Matt. 18:20).

(20) Thus He(Jesus) says: "Behold, I stand at the
door and knock . If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come into him and dine with him, and he with Me" (Rev. 3:20).

Christ Is the Judge

(21) St. Paul the Apostle says: "For we must all appear
before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2Cor. 5:10).

(22) The Lord says in the Gospel according to St. Matthew: "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works" (Matt. 16:27).

How can the Lord Jesus Christ have the glory of the
Father unless He is God Himself, because God is not rivaled by anyone in His glory, and He said: "I am the Lord, that is My name and My glory I will not give to another" (Is. 42:8)?

But Christ the Lord says: "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him" (Matt.
25:31,32)
But Christ says: "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works"

Then can you make Jesus a lier or Unless he is God?

(Matt. 16:27), and: " Whoever is ashamed of Me and My
words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels"
(Luke 9:26).

At Last "Blessing and honour and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!" (Rev. 5: 13)

That is enough for now.

Let God give us Wisdom.

Geoff · Tadpole Joined: 28 May 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Australia

Hello Habeshaw,

If you were to put God in a bottle, do you think the bottle then has to be God?

Then if you took that bottle and showed it to someone who hadn't seen you put God in the bottle and said to them "This is God", wouldn't they laugh at you?

But you would know that when you were looking at the bottle, God was there too.

The bottle would now be the vessel of God but God would not be diminished by His being in the bottle any more than the bottle would become God becaused it housed God.

If you wanted to worship God while He was in the bottle, wouldn't you have to bow down before the bottle, not in homage to the bottle, but because you discerned that God was in the bottle?

Geoff.

Ryck · Lion King Joined: 05 Dec 2002 Posts: 1094

Dartman · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:10 am Post subject:

Wow! Like Ryck, I am going to have a hard time figureing out where to quit, in order to have a short post.
Since most of the bulleted items Habeshaw mentioned are standard trinitarian fare, I will just address the imaginary "glory" problem that was posed. The Isa 42:8 half quote is missleading....(I HOPE not intentionally)...in that the essential remainder of the SAME VERSE reads: "...neither my praise to graven images."
This explains the context of "glory to another" fairly well, and erases the supposed conflict with God giving glory to his son.

If we believe that Jesus spoke with authority given by his Father, and I suspect we ALL do, then we should accept the words of Jesus in John 17:20-22

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

These words of Jesus should put to rest this invented 'glory' problem, AND do a stunning job of illustrating, in JESUS words, HOW Jesus and his God (Heb 1:9), are one...just like WE can be "one".

Mattathias · Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject:

doctrellor · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:33 am Post subject:

Dartman · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject:

Rocket · House Cat Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 160

Yes, I certainly agree, I know people have been so blinded by church doctrine today and it's so sad. Yeshua taught the truth, He is God's son and there is only One true God, God the Father. I wish I knew of a church that truly believes what Yeshua taught. Many Messianic churchs have included believers in the trinity also.

doctrellor · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject:

Dartman · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject:

Rocket · House Cat Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 160

It's been a long time coming but I am glad to see that we agree. I've been preaching this for ten years or more, and finally there is some agreement. I've had many, many people disagree, gotten so many insulting answers to my post. Thank you so much for yours. I believe that Yeshua pleased God by His life, the kind of life He lived or He would not have been used as a sacrifice. Thru His pain and His sacrifice we have been saved. I just think He should get His due for who and what He was and did.

Dartman · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:04 am Post subject:

doctrellor · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject:

There are people who wouldn't disagree that he's a man

In fact a viewpoint that has actually gathered some followerslately is a continuation of an idea held by Ebionites ... (which people know in the bible as the Judaizers .. from Paul's epistles)

8note: The issue that Paul had with the Judaizers was not thier Christiology, but thier strict demand for circumcision for Gentile beleivers

The Christiology is this:

The Messiah is a man .. born of Mary and Joseph [for the first 25 years of the Church, the idea of the Virgin Mary didn't even come up for discussion, as the Bibilical Hebrew word that we see as virgin means "Young woman" which Mary was according to scripture.]

Jesus is in the wilderness for 40 days, and Satan tempts Jesus and thus Jesus overcomes Satan. [Now remember, Satan would be doing his job as the tempter, since that is what some say was his duty]. Thus Jesus "proves" his reighteousness and spiritualness to YHWH

The Messiah was baptized by John

Upon Baptism, YHWH made Jesus into the Messiah when his power (aka the Holy Spirit) landed upon Jesus in the form of a dove (I think, since I don't have my bible open right now)

Thus THWH adopted the Messiah into his family as his begotten son.

And thus we see in Hebrew how we are a royal priesthood with Jesus as our High Priest, Jesus is the mediator between YHWH and us, we are Jesus' brothers and are one with him, We are adopted as sons and call YHWH our father. and there are other verses which would be considered "Adoptionistic" is light ..

So for Adoptionism, Hebrews and Galations are considered highly regarded for showing a distinctly human Jesus & showing other aspects of the ideas
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