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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | What did your quotes prove? None of them say Armageddon is coming in 1975. You believe "It could! It could! All things are possible with God." is a prophesy?
You think The society keeping people awake as to the time we are living in was exclusive to the time prior to 1975???
You have shown nothing.
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What you are failing to realise is that these quotes about keeping people awake as to the time we're said in the context of 1975.
| Quote: | | I wasn't in Sheboygan, Wisconsin though. I understand certain individuals misrepresented the society's words. |
Your interpretation that this was said by "certain individuals" is a wrong one to make. What i have showed from Wisconsin is that it was said from the platform. It was said from the platform of assemblies and of kingdom halls across the world. This was not limited to "certain individuals". The guy i quoted was a DO!
Did the society do anything to stop these "certain individuals" from saying this from the platform? Come on TBax, you know only too well if you say something from the platform that doesn't tow the WT line you would be dealt with in a severe way. |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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TBax,
I notice again you have ducked my question,
| Quote: | | If you were found teaching the 'truth' as JW's now view it would you have been disfellowshipped? |
This is now the third time of asking it. Would you now answer my question? |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:26 am Post subject: |
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Wolvo,
| Wolvo wrote: | | What you are failing to realise is that these quotes about keeping people awake as to the time we're said in the context of 1975. |
They are still showing that the end is close and we need to keep our priorities straight. If you want to read something into a particular article, you will. Some JW's did during that time too. 
| Wolvo wrote: | Your interpretation that this was said by "certain individuals" is a wrong one to make.
...
This was not limited to "certain individuals". The guy i quoted was a DO! |
So? The DO is just a man. In that particular case, he didn't represent the society properly. He was saying things the society never said. My father didn't believe what these certain individuals said. So it was certain individuals. Now they are humbled or have left the truth.
| WOlvo wrote: | | This is now the third time of asking it. Would you now answer my question? |
I am not getting caught up in your hypotheticalls. All you are getting is individuals can be disfellowshipped for being haughty and causing divisions. Many factors are involved including the persons attitude.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: |
I was indeed around in 1975. I was 8 but I was there. I wasn't in Sheboygan, Wisconsin though. I understand certain individuals misrepresented the society's words. I know of individuals in my congregation that thought 1975 was more significant then it actually was. My father said "the bible shows we aren't to know when armageddon is coming". I believed my father and what the society actually said.  |
Does that mean that the WTS floated a belief and allowed people to run with their imaginations as per the speaker did in Sheboygan, Wisconsin? What did they expect people to think with that kind of news?
That like an astronomical agency saying, "There is an asteroid heading toward the Earth" then allowing people to run with their imaginations when they should have said, "There is an asteroid heading toward the Earth but it isn't going to hit the Earth but fly-by by a million miles"?
See the difference?  |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Ryck,
Accurate information was given. People want the end to come so bad, perhaps for selfish reasons, and will sometimes read things into what was said. Even the first century Christians were keenly interested in when the Kigndom was rule over this earth. When you reach a milestone, like 1975, , it may tend to get some excited.
Personally, I never heard a speaker from the stage say what was said in Sheboygan, Wisconsin. I also don't know if or how that brother was dealt with. I just don't have that information. All I know is what was officially said and what I believed then.
Perhaps God allowed this running of the imagination for a purpose. To weed out those serving with a date in mind. To humble those remaining. I don't know.
The fact is, there is indeed an "asteroid" heading toward the earth, and it will hit. We can see it is close. We just don't know when it will hit.
For those that need things spelled out, "asteroid", in the above paragraph, is in reference to Armageddon coming. Not a literal asteroid.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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TBax wrote,
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WOlvo wrote:
This is now the third time of asking it. Would you now answer my question?
I am not getting caught up in your hypotheticalls. All you are getting is individuals can be disfellowshipped for being haughty and causing divisions. Many factors are involved including the persons attitude. |
Thank you for at least addressing my question.
First of all though, this is not a hypothetical. I know of a sister who got disfellowshipped for this very reason. She didn't agree with the generation doctrine and ended up getting disfellowshipped. I agree with you that divisions would be caused by this thinking, but it doesn't alter the fact that in JW terms it is now the correct thinking.
The flaw with the JW religion is that if a doctrine gets changed, you have to change your line of thinking and beliefs to fit in with the new thought on the issue. If you don't you are thought of as an apostate. |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Ryck wrote,
| Quote: | Does that mean that the WTS floated a belief and allowed people to run with their imaginations as per the speaker did in Sheboygan, Wisconsin? What did they expect people to think with that kind of news?
That like an astronomical agency saying, "There is an asteroid heading toward the Earth" then allowing people to run with their imaginations when they should have said, "There is an asteroid heading toward the Earth but it isn't going to hit the Earth but fly-by by a million miles"?
See the difference? |
Thank you Ryck. At least i am making some inroads on this issue.
The problem with JW's such as TBax is that they have been told over and over again by the WTS that it was only individuals who misinterpretated what the WTS was saying at the time. When Armaggedon failed to materialise in 1975 all JW's we're waiting for a response from the society. This didn't come, in fact the WTS remained silent on the issue. Eventually they had to come up with something as there was a lot of doubts arising with the rank and file as to whether the WTS were really Jehovahs mouthpiece.
When the society placed the blame at the hands of the rank and file many in fact did leave. This was then interpretated as a sifting process to get rid of those who weren't really serving Jehovah. Witnesses now who were either children at the time or have since become believers have been told constantly that it was individual rank and file interpretation.
If the WTS would ever acknowledge their mistakes their credibility would go up in my view. But sadly they won't.
Unfortunately TBax's response in blaming individuals is a typical JW response. It is almost as if he were reading a script. I have shown overwhelming evidence that the WTS were saying the end was about to come in 1975, it is up to the reader as to whether they accept that evidence at the face value i have presented it or not. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Wolvo,
| Wolvo wrote: | | First of all though, this is not a hypothetical. I know of a sister who got disfellowshipped for this very reason. She didn't agree with the generation doctrine and ended up getting disfellowshipped. |
I didn't agree with the generation thing and I didn't get disfellowshipped. People are not disfellowshipped for not agreeing with a certain doctrine. However people can be disfellowshipped for forcefully causing divisions. It is a difference between haughtiness and humility. If we personally think something is wrong, then we must be humble and patient, waiting on Jehovah to correct things in His due time, or perhaps we will gain understanding and realize we were wrong. The latter is probably true most of the time.
Your question to me was indeed hypothetical, as I don't know that person or the facts involved in her case. To boil the case down to "she was disfellowshipped because she disagreed with a certain doctrine" is most inaccurate, I am sure.
| Wolvo wrote: | | Unfortunately TBax's response in blaming individuals is a typical JW response. It is almost as if he were reading a script. |
You saw the official statements, and none of them said that armageddon is coming in 1975. It was indeed individualls who drew those conclusions. My father didn't believe that 1975 meant armageddon, and neither did I. If explaining my personal experience is "reading a script", so be it. The script is true.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I didn't agree with the generation thing and I didn't get disfellowshipped. People are not disfellowshipped for not agreeing with a certain doctrine. |
Bet you didn't tell the elders that you didn't agree with watchtower docrine. To say people don't get disfellowshipped for not agreeing with doctrine is absurd. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Wolvo wrote: |
The problem with JW's such as TBax is that they have been told over and over again by the WTS that it was only individuals who misinterpretated what the WTS was saying at the time. When Armaggedon failed to materialise in 1975 all JW's we're waiting for a response from the society. This didn't come, in fact the WTS remained silent on the issue. Eventually they had to come up with something as there was a lot of doubts arising with the rank and file as to whether the WTS were really Jehovahs mouthpiece.
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Let me see if I got this straight.
You're saying that the rank and file JWs didn't come up with the 1975 date idea themselves but got it from the WTS. The rank and file ran with it. Then when 1975 came and went the WTS blamed the rank and file for getting it wrong?
Incredible!
When the WTS first floated the 1975 idea and year 1975 was as span of how many years? Did the WTS had any time to percieve the thinking of its membership to whether they knew what they got out of the 1975 idea and had any time to correct any misunderstandings? |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Ryck wrote,
| Quote: | Let me see if I got this straight.
You're saying that the rank and file JWs didn't come up with the 1975 date idea themselves but got it from the WTS. The rank and file ran with it. Then when 1975 came and went the WTS blamed the rank and file for getting it wrong?
Incredible!
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I will just answer with WT quotes and you can make your own mind up.
WT 15/7 1976
| Quote: | | 11 It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bible’s warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date. |
The corresponding study question reads
| Quote: | | 11. What mistake may some persons have made as to their Christian course? |
That July 15, 1976 article, while discussing Jesus words about not being weighed down with anxieties of life at Luke 21:34-36 said,
| Quote: | | Did Jesus mean that we should adjust our financial and secular affairs so that our resources would just carry us to a certain date that we think marks the end? If our house is suffering serious deterioration, should we let it go, on the assumption that we would need it only a few months longer? Or, if someone in the family needs special medical care, should we say, "Well, we'll put it off because the time is so near for this system of things to go"? This is not the kind of thinking that Jesus advised |
Contrast that with this statement from the May, 1974 Our Kingdom Ministry said,
| Quote: | | Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end." |
The closest to an apology was made in 1980 March 15 WT,
| Quote: | 5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.
6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Wolvo,
| Wolvo wrote: | Contrast that with this statement from the May, 1974 Our Kingdom Ministry said,
| Quote: | | Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end." |
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The society is always encouraging individualls to simplify their lives so as to spend more time doing what is truly important, following Jesus example in preaching about the kingdom. The end is indeed coming. How should we spend our lives in this system?
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The society is always encouraging individualls to simplify their lives so as to spend more time doing what is truly important, following Jesus example in preaching about the kingdom. The end is indeed coming. How should we spend our lives in this system? |
I refer you to my above comment,
| Quote: | I will just answer with WT quotes and you can make your own mind up.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, and strategically placed in a certain context, not taking into account what is consistently said. 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Wolvo
Alley Cat
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, and strategically placed in a certain context, not taking into account what is consistently said. |
In the context of everything that was being said about 1975 the reader can interprate what was being said. |
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