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dabmci
House Cat
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 160
Location: Wylie
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 Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| Evee wrote: | | SS wrote: | Before sin entered our world, God (Jesus Christ) was able to talk to man, face to face.
Sin, separated mankind from a face to face conversation. |
This makes no sense, Silver. Before there was a Bible, there was sin. He communicated His will before there was a Bible. Paul didn't have a Bible. Abraham didn't have a Bible. Moses didn't have a Bible. Adam & Eve didn't have a Bible. Noah didn't have a Bible. Should I go on? |
Evee,
What does not make any sense, SS reply? |
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| dabmci wrote: | | Evee wrote: | | SS wrote: | Before sin entered our world, God (Jesus Christ) was able to talk to man, face to face.
Sin, separated mankind from a face to face conversation. |
This makes no sense, Silver. Before there was a Bible, there was sin. He communicated His will before there was a Bible. Paul didn't have a Bible. Abraham didn't have a Bible. Moses didn't have a Bible. Adam & Eve didn't have a Bible. Noah didn't have a Bible. Should I go on? |
Evee,
What does not make any sense, SS reply? |
Well, Noah, and Abraham, and Jacob, just to name a few, had conversations with God, and they had no bible.
The "Written Word of God" did not come along until the Children of Israel got to Mt Zion. And then it was pretty simple. It was long after they settled in Canaan that it got so complex.
And the Christians got along for a few centuries without the Bible.
It was not until the corporation took over that the need for a Bible was decided.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 702
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| MrLucas wrote: | | "When someone says "we need to study with a completely open mind, and change where change is indicated." I question that idea, because there is still the assumption that the Bible is true and that it would be reasonable for God to expect us to believe the bible is true." |
Lucas, this thread has been going for almost two months now. Aside from Surfer's complete digression from the topic, there have been numerous answers that (we feel) have both addressed and answered your original question in full.
Your original question was, "Does God expect us to believe anything else, or any other book is absolutely true merely because we think we ought? I don't think so. So why would He expect this of us regarding the bible?" And the answer from the folks on this forum was a resounding, "No, God does not expect us to believe the Bible is absolutely true!" This is proven by the fact that nowhere does Scripture quote God as saying such a thing.
It has further been proven by the fact that no Bible existed for thousands of years before Moses, and yet, people still seemed to enjoy communion with God (or, so we assume).
But here we are, two months later, and you're still making statements like the one quoted above: "there is still the assumption that the Bible is true and that it would be reasonable for God to expect us to believe the bible is true." And we're sorry, Lucas, but it's been demonstrated often enough that there is no assumption. So now my wife and I begin to wonder if perhaps the assumption isn't in you, because we don't know how the folks on this forum could be any clearer.
We've tried to demonstrate from just a few of the prophecies mentioned in Scripture that the Bible is different than any other book in all the world throughout human history, and you've not responded to any of those posts. Instead, you continue to harp on the ones where people quote verses that cannot necessarily be proven one way or another. So, should we assume you accept the prophecies as true, but continue to doubt the other verses... or, did you merely ignore the prophecies in order to continue belaboring your point?
What is your real motivation here? Because, remember, you deliberately sought out a Christian website, filled with "Bible-believing" members, with the intention of arguing the value of the Scriptures that these believers have come to trust so much. And then, when they thoroughly answer your questions, without any hesitation or offense, you continue to beat the same dead horse - sort of like what Surfer does. Which leads us to question your true intentions.
At first, we assumed you were here as a genuine seeker of knowledge and understanding. But now we wonder, are you instead one of those people who likes to get on Christian websites in the hopes of drawing some of the weaker ones away from their faith? Are you one of those people who delights in crushing innocent people's hopes?
Or, is it just a matter of your unwillingness to give up your assumption that God expects everyone to blindly accept the Bible as absolute, infallible truth? What's really going on here, Lucas? |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| SS wrote: | Before sin entered our world, God (Jesus Christ) was able to talk to man, face to face.
Sin, separated mankind from a face to face conversation. |
| Evee wrote: |
This makes no sense, Silver. Before there was a Bible, there was sin. He communicated His will before there was a Bible. Paul didn't have a Bible. |
Then why did Paul tell Timothy that He had learned about Salvationb from the Scriptures ?
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
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Abraham didn't have a Bible. |
How did Abraham know about God's Law and commandments then ?
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
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Moses didn't have a Bible. |
Who do you think wrote the first 5 books of the Bible ?
| Quote: | | Adam & Eve didn't have a Bible. |
They has direct communication with Christ Himself.
| Quote: | | Noah didn't have a Bible. |
How did Noah know about the building of an Ark ?
God must have had some communication with Noah ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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MrLucas
Show Poodle
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| GospelCompilation wrote: | | MrLucas wrote: | | "When someone says "we need to study with a completely open mind, and change where change is indicated." I question that idea, because there is still the assumption that the Bible is true and that it would be reasonable for God to expect us to believe the bible is true." |
Lucas, this thread has been going for almost two months now. Aside from Surfer's complete digression from the topic, there have been numerous answers that (we feel) have both addressed and answered your original question in full.
Your original question was, "Does God expect us to believe anything else, or any other book is absolutely true merely because we think we ought? I don't think so. So why would He expect this of us regarding the bible?" And the answer from the folks on this forum was a resounding, "No, God does not expect us to believe the Bible is absolutely true!" This is proven by the fact that nowhere does Scripture quote God as saying such a thing.
It has further been proven by the fact that no Bible existed for thousands of years before Moses, and yet, people still seemed to enjoy communion with God (or, so we assume).
But here we are, two months later, and you're still making statements like the one quoted above: "there is still the assumption that the Bible is true and that it would be reasonable for God to expect us to believe the bible is true." And we're sorry, Lucas, but it's been demonstrated often enough that there is no assumption. So now my wife and I begin to wonder if perhaps the assumption isn't in you, because we don't know how the folks on this forum could be any clearer.
We've tried to demonstrate from just a few of the prophecies mentioned in Scripture that the Bible is different than any other book in all the world throughout human history, and you've not responded to any of those posts. Instead, you continue to harp on the ones where people quote verses that cannot necessarily be proven one way or another. So, should we assume you accept the prophecies as true, but continue to doubt the other verses... or, did you merely ignore the prophecies in order to continue belaboring your point?
What is your real motivation here? Because, remember, you deliberately sought out a Christian website, filled with "Bible-believing" members, with the intention of arguing the value of the Scriptures that these believers have come to trust so much. And then, when they thoroughly answer your questions, without any hesitation or offense, you continue to beat the same dead horse - sort of like what Surfer does. Which leads us to question your true intentions.
At first, we assumed you were here as a genuine seeker of knowledge and understanding. But now we wonder, are you instead one of those people who likes to get on Christian websites in the hopes of drawing some of the weaker ones away from their faith? Are you one of those people who delights in crushing innocent people's hopes?
Or, is it just a matter of your unwillingness to give up your assumption that God expects everyone to blindly accept the Bible as absolute, infallible truth? What's really going on here, Lucas? |
Hi GospelCompilation. My recent posts were really responding to Silver Surfer's most recent posts. I haven't probably been to the site for a couple of months, and hadn't read the more recent posts on this thread. This is probably due to limited time and also that I have ME (CFS) which means I have to manage my energy levels (including reading sometimes). So I'll have to read through the thread for what's been said. That makes sense.
I am very interested in this topic. As for my motivation - well, I'm not exactly sure myself. I'm not wishing to upset peoples beliefs or weaken vulnerable people's faith. But if certain topics upset people, they don't have to read the threads. I can't see anything wrong with debating things and I haven't got the impression that its against the rules of the forum and believe I have a right to debate things.. Have I answered this clearly enough? |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 702
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| Lucas wrote: | | "I'm not wishing to upset people's beliefs or weaken vulnerable people's faith. But if certain topics upset people, they don't have to read the threads. I can't see anything wrong with debating things." |
Thank you for the timely reply, Lucas. And yes, we completely agree with you: debate is good, when done in a proper manner. We perceived a change in your demeanor and we thought it best to ask you directly. We assumed it was something else, and we apologize for misunderstanding.
My wife and I have always been impressed with your questions (and the way you've presented yourself); in fact, we look forward to every time you post a thread, because we know it will generate great conversation. Well... until SilverSurfer hijacks it for his own personal agenda... :-)
Thank you again, Lucas, and we hope to see you more often on the forum. It's been a pleasure having you here.
PS. You don't have to quote the post your answering. Just hit the "postreply" button at the bottom of the page, and address the poster directly. It saves having to scroll down through stuff we've already read in order to get to your reply. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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SS,
All of those you mentioned did not have "The Bible". They communicated w/God through other means. "The Bible" was not put together until much later. Scripture does not necessarily mean "The Bible", especially when there was no "Bible" at the time the "scriptures" were written.
GC & Lucas,
It helps to quote the part of the post you're responding to so people can follow the conversation. There could be many responses in between before someone answers another's post.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Evee wrote: | SS,
All of those you mentioned did not have "The Bible". They communicated w/God through other means. |
Yes, I agree.
God used people...to comunicate with other people.
Prophets ?
| Quote: |
"The Bible" was not put together until much later. Scripture does not necessarily mean "The Bible", especially when there was no "Bible" at the time the "scriptures" were written. |
The 'Bible'...is what you mean by both the OT and the NT...together in one book ?
We know that God's will was commnicated thru OT Scriptures, from the time of Moses onward.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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MrLucas
Show Poodle
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: . |
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Hi GospelCompilation.
Pleased that you understand me better. However, I don't think we're going to agree on everything. We're probably coming at things from quite different angles. I was involved in the christian church for a number of years, and my beliefs have changed over time, including going through a christian fundamentalist stage. Right now, I guess I don't want to be labelled really, don't want to label myself. I wouldn't really call myself a Christian. While I believe the bible contains truth I don't think it is all true or all the word of God. I don't think Jesus died as a sin offering really. I'm very interested in some of Jesus' teachings. and am interested in the whole Bible from an academic perspective. I believe in taking what works and what helps and discarding the rest. I'm interested in debating aspects of the Bible because I like debate. I would say I was hurt in a way by some christian teachings I've experienced. But on the otherhand the church and christianity has also helped me over the years too. I like examining any belief system, including the religious. I will question the bible and people's beliefs on the forum. And I would expect the same of others with regard to my comments. The board rules say different views are welcome. People want to dicuss the Bible for different reasons, even if they are not strictly 'Christian'. Those reasons can still be genuine. Like I said, I'm not wanting to hurt or upset people and at the end of the day my belief is that if their thoughts and beliefs work for them and help them then they should stick with them. If they are vulnerable then I have to say it's best for them to learn not to read the threads that might upset them. To avoid debate and argument and challenges re interpretations of the bible and indeed the nature of the Bible one needs to use a forum where rules are such that fewer views are acceptable. I'm not bitter about past Church experiences and don't feel the need to uncovert people. My motivation I think is to test ideas, debate ideas, learn new information, discover more about what the Bible is really saying and means, and challenge peoples arguments if it seems a fair thing to do. Well this has been a rant. But I think it's a point worth making. |
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MrLucas
Show Poodle
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: . |
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Hi again GospelCompilation.
Im not being cheeky - my interest is genuine and I'm curious. How come you say 'we' when you write. it must be hard for you and your wife to put ideas together in posts and that. Do you really both read the posts and then decide how you'll reply.
Like I said, just curious. |
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