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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Why would God expect you to believe the Bible? |
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Just want to comment on a couple of things in your original post Mr Lucas. Some very good points were brought up. | MrLucas wrote: | I read recently (I think it might have been in one of Deepak Chopra's books - but not sure) that the books of the new testament were written a number of decades (or more?) after Jesus and the first christians started.
Also, it is not known who wrote the gospels. The names Matthew, mark, luke etc. were not the authors, only names given to the books.
It is not know who wrote the book of Revelation - it is often said to be John - but this isn't known for certain. |
I have heard this too. Many scholars believe this. However, probably just as many don't and have their very good reasons and proofs for it.
I recently read something by one scholar named John A T Robinson that made much sense to me. He questions the ideas that the gospels and the Revelation were written much later after the time of Christ, and has very convincing reasons why they may have been written in the generation that saw Christ among them.
My point is that you will find very educated and well read people on all sides of this debate and the wise thing to do is do some reading yourself, use your good sense, and seek God.
| MrLucas wrote: |
The books to go in the bible were selected by men. Some were discarded, some were chosen. Now, how do you know whether these men were led by God or not? We don't. Fraid I don't fully trust people and all those in authority.
Add to this that it has been translated, and you don't always know if the translation's right. People often interpret the bible wrong, because they don't know the culture, the history, the language it comes from.
Now, when you go to church, they don't tell you this, do they! |
Actually I've found that they're usually forthcoming about the fact that the canon of the Bible was selected by a "panel of experts" at church. Churches more or less trust that these guys made the right call. Actually many of the other books are out there and if you feel these men left something out, you can get hold of it and read it.
While not suggesting it should be added to the canon, I know of Christians who study the book of Enoch and believe there is inspired truth in it. I also wonder about the book of Barnabas. I've only read a small portion of it, but what I read was explaining all the old testament shadows and proofs that Jesus is the Christ.
You have a great point about the culture and the history. We do miss a lot of the meaning in the Bible because we're not knowlegeable about that. Best we can do is if we're truly hungering for the truth, read as much about that as possible. There are plenty of study materials out there.
And I will add, I am very thankful that having all my teaching correct is not required to be saved! Our faith is not in the Bible, but in the risen Lord! Not in a book but a living person. Whether I understand it all fully and correctly or not, He is who He is, and He's done what He's done, and it is by Him that I am saved, not by the correctness of my beliefs.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 705
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Excellent point, JP! It was so good, in fact, it deserves to be repeated:
| RevJP wrote: | | "All this is based of course on the assumption that no one reads their bibles, or studies them, or investigates other scholarship connected to or pertaining to the bible (anthropology, archeology, sociology, etc.) or has challenged their own faith, or has come to their faith from avenues other than having it spoon-fed to them from childhood. These assumptions do little other than to sell short the intelligence and conviction of the faithful." |
I too struggle with not making assumptions. Thank you for putting it so bluntly. Sometimes I need to hear strong encouragement from gentle men of God.
| RevJP wrote: | | "So your question then isn't really about God expecting us to believe the bible is His Holy Inspired Word, but rather about men and women of religion expecting us to believe it, yes?" |
This was exactly the question I was going to ask. I agree that the real question here is not, "What does God expect?" but rather, "What do religious leaders expect?" and furthermore, "Does it matter what the religious leaders expect?"
If the expectations of religious leaders are somehow harming innocent people, then perhaps we should discuss that issue. What do you say, Lucas? |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Why would God expect you to believe the Bible? |
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| MrLucas wrote: | | Does God expect us to believe anything else, or any other book is absolutely true merely cause we think we ought. Don't think so. So why would he expect this of us regarding the bible? |
By putting together the Bble and history books....the Bible is confirmed, as being absolutely true and accurate.
As far as I know, the 7th Day Adventist church is the only church that has done this.
And that is why they are mentioned in the Bible as being God's last day church, which carries the "EverLasting Gospel message" (Revelation 14:6-16).
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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holly102869
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 278
Location: Central, Florida USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Not sure where you get that the SDA is anything out of this part of Rev.
| Quote: | As far as I know, the 7th Day Adventist church is the only church that has done this.
And that is why they are mentioned in the Bible as being God's last day church, which carries the "EverLasting Gospel message" (Revelation 14:6-16).
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Also scholars have studied the Bible and History of the world in comparison more that any other form of literature. To say that the SDA is the only Church to do so is ridicolus.
Oh and by the way if God wanted the SDA is not mentioned by name in Rev. so how can you be sure that you are right. For all I know you could be trying to decieve everyone.
Hate to break it to you but nobody knows the truth and I would bet it is not a certain type of church. Jesus is the temple and so are we. The choosen will be of every nationality and type of church.
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Bless you,
Holly
Ask,Seek,Knock
For only you can Save yourself. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| holly102869 wrote: |
Oh and by the way if God wanted the SDA is not mentioned by name in Rev. so how can you be sure that you are right. |
Simple read the description given in the Bible verse.
What other church is there who teaches people to keep All God's commandments, thru the same faith Jesus Christ had ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Does not God work through individuals and is not the church composed of these individuals usually reffered to as the bride?
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but you seem to be claiming that God is working today only through the SDA organization and not the individual.
Where in scripture did God choose an organization to lead His people?
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever, He always deals with individuals through His Spirit and never has an organization been chosen.
As for this claim, | Quote: | As far as I know, the 7th Day Adventist church is the only church that has done this.
And that is why they are mentioned in the Bible as being God's last day church, which carries the "EverLasting Gospel message" (Revelation 14:6-16). |
This claim is not much different from what JW's, or mormon's claim as to be the last day church or Gods "channel today, a claim which I believe is false for in Rev 14:6 an ANGEL (singular, not denomination or organization but ONE MESSANGER)has the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on earth. This runs true to form throughout the whole bible for God always sent One Major Prophet with His message to His people. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | Does not God work through individuals and is not the church composed of these individuals usually reffered to as the bride? |
I believe that you're correct on that.
| Quote: |
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but you seem to be claiming that God is working today only through the SDA organization and not the individual. |
As I've mentioned before, elsewhere....not all SDA's are true SDA's.
Yes, God works thru the indivdiuals who have proven to be obedient to Him.
| Quote: |
Where in scripture did God choose an organization to lead His people? |
God has had a people called his own, Israel for example.
BUT, out of the whole people of Israel, there were only a chosen few, whom God actually used for special purposes.
Out of the SDA church, described in the Bible, God will only use those who have proven obedient to Himself, for special purposes.
| Quote: |
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever, He always deals with individuals through His Spirit and never has an organization been chosen. |
Correct.
| Quote: |
As for this claim, | Quote: | As far as I know, the 7th Day Adventist church is the only church that has done this.
And that is why they are mentioned in the Bible as being God's last day church, which carries the "EverLasting Gospel message" (Revelation 14:6-16). |
This claim is not much different from what JW's, or mormon's claim as to be the last day church or Gods "channel today, a claim which I believe is false for in Rev 14:6 an ANGEL (singular, not denomination or organization but ONE MESSANGER)has the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on earth. This runs true to form throughout the whole bible for God always sent One Major Prophet with His message to His people. |
Really ?
Then you need to study the Bible much better than you have been.
Both Daniel and Ezekiel were prophets in the same time frame.
In Paul's time, there are mentioned several prophets doing the samer thing, at the same time.
One man had 3 daughters, who were 'all' prophets.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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I do not deny God has had more than one prophet but He had only one Major prophet sent to give a message at a time. For example if Daniel and Ezekiel were in the same time frame we both know only Ezekiel was sent to Israel to give a message from God to Israel. Same with Paul there were other minor prophets but Paul was the Major Prophet with the Message
Gal 1:9 "If any man preach any other gospel than that which you have recieved let him be accursed"
We also know this was Paul for He was used of God to write most of the NT.
| Quote: | | Out of the SDA church, described in the Bible, God will only use those who have proven obedient to Himself, for special purposes. |
Only church described in the bible is the bride, or the body of Christ. God does not work within the SDA church, but with people of all denomionations. |
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MrLucas
Show Poodle
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: . |
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Re above post. I was overgeneralising. Yet, I still think there are a lot of people around in that position. Yes, there will be some people around like you describe to. And people in between.
I think there is truth in the Bible. However, I can't see the reason to believe it is all literally true. Some I don't think is true.
I guess it comes down to faith? Some Christians put a lot of emphasis on faith.
But I still haven't worked this one out - Who said the bible was true - who said to have faith in the Bible. Your pastor? Billy Graham? The Pope? Would you do everything else they told you to do? Heck, I wouldn't.
It's one think believing the Bible can reveal spiritual truth and inspire. It's another to believe it literally etc. We just wouldn't approach any other book like this. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Holly wrote: | | Not sure where you get that the SDA is anything out of this part of Rev. |
That comes from reading the bible through lenses of self-righteous pride.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 705
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| MrLucas wrote: | | "It's one thing believing the Bible can reveal spiritual truth and inspire. It's another to believe it literally etc. We just wouldn't approach any other book like this." |
You are absolutely correct, Lucas. We wouldn't, and we don't approach any other book like we approach Scripture. But, as my wife and I have shared a few of the prophecies in Scripture (and understand that we haven't even shared the most powerful, awe-inspiring ones yet!), we've tried to demonstrate that there is no other book like Scripture.
Simply put, it is the only one of its kind... in all the world, and throughout all of human history. We approach Scripture differently because it is different. Vastly different, in fact, than any other book ever written.
HE GAVE US THE INSTRUMENT
Common sense tells us that God does not want us to "blindly" accept anything. In fact, He wants us to investigate and test the truth for ourselves. How do we know that? Because He gave us a brain that can dissect, diagnose, and discover... and it only makes sense that He intends for us to use it.
HE INVITES US TO USE IT
In Isaiah 1:18, Yahweh invites you and me and every human being to do something wonderful with Him. He said, "Come and let us reason together." Do you hear the invitation? "Come." God wants us to draw close to Him, because He enjoys our company. But there is another invitation, after we have drawn close to Him, He invites us to "reason together" with Him. God wants us to open our minds, to expand our thinking, and He wants to present us with truths and ideas that we might not have considered otherwise... and then He wants us to think about it, pick it apart, look at it under a microscope, and experiment with it... and see for ourselves whether or not it's true. In other words, Lucas... God wants us to ask questions. He invites us to dig deep, really deep, and ask the really hard questions.
HE BLESSES OUR DILIGENCE
So, what you're doing here is exactly what He invites all of His children to do: to keep asking, keep seeking, and keep knocking (Matthew 7:7). For, he tells us, if we keep asking the hard questions, He will give us the answers; if we keep seeking the real truth, He will reveal it to us; and if we keep knocking on the doors of our heart and mind, desiring them to be opened, He will open for us a new way of understanding and a new way of living that will radically change us from the inside out.
HE IS NOT OFFENDED
There is an interesting story found in 1 Kings 10:1-3 about the Queen of Sheba. It says: "When the Queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of Yahweh, she came to test him with hard questions. She came to Jerusalem... and when she appeared before Solomon, she spoke with him about all that was in her heart. So Solomon answered all her questions; there was nothing so difficult for the king that he could not explain it to her."
Do you see why she went to Solomon? He had become famous because of his wisdom "concerning the name of Yahweh." It was his spiritual insight that made him so famous. And, apparently, the Queen of Sheba had some "hard questions" that were "in her heart" - really hard questions, that no one else was able to answer. So, she went to Jerusalem to "test" Solomon, and see if he could answer those really hard questions.
And how did Solomon react? He invited her in, listened to her heart, and answered all her questions, without even a hint of offense. Why? Because, when Solomon was younger, he had also asked the hard questions... and he spent time with God, reasoning with his Maker, finding the answers, and discovering the truth for himself. So, Solomon was not offended by her hard questions, because God was not offended by his hard questions.
In the same way, He's not offended by our hard questions. In fact, He invites us to reason with Him.
IN CONCLUSION
My wife says I need to stop here, or the post will become too burdensome. But the point we wanted to make, Lucas, is that "faith" means "trust," and trust is not blindly given to anyone or anything... trust is earned. And God is willing to earn your trust. Therefore, He invites you (and me and all of us) to come, draw close to Him, open our hearts to Him, and pour out our questions. And the harder the questions, the better!
It does my heart good to see the sincerity of your questions. Truly, "you are not far from the kingdom of God" (Mark 12:34). |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3397
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Really good post, GC. Nice explanation.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | Quote: | | SS said: Out of the SDA church, described in the Bible, God will only use those who have proven obedient to Himself, for special purposes. |
Only church described in the bible is the bride, or the body of Christ. God does not work within the SDA church, but with people of all denomionations. |
Yes, God is in the process of bringing people out of Babylon (false churches).......
Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| GC wrote: | | Common sense tells us that God does not want us to "blindly" accept anything. In fact, He wants us to investigate and test the truth for ourselves. How do we know that? Because He gave us a brain that can dissect, diagnose, and discover... and it only makes sense that He intends for us to use it. |
1Pe 3:15 But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully. [Isa. 8:12, 13.]
Php 4:8 For the rest, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them].
Deu 6:5 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your [mind and] heart and with your entire being and with all your might.
Mat 22:37 And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). (38) This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Why would God expect you to believe the Bible? |
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| MrLucas wrote: | | Does God expect us to believe anything else, or any other book is absolutely true merely cause we think we ought. Don't think so. So why would he expect this of us regarding the bible? |
The Bible, has proved itself, throughout History.
It has told of the rise and fall of nations......which history, has shown to be true.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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