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MrLucas
Show Poodle
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 253
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 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: Why would God expect you to believe the Bible? |
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I read recently (I think it might have been in one of Deepak Chopra's books - but not sure) that the books of the new testament were written a number of decades (or more?) after Jesus and the first christians started.
Also, it is not known who wrote the gospels. The names Matthew, mark, luke etc. were not the authors, only names given to the books.
It is not know who wrote the book of Revelation - it is often said to be John - but this isn't known for certain.
The books to go in the bible were selected by men. Some were discarded, some were chosen. Now, how do you know whether these men were led by God or not? We don't. Fraid I don't fully trust people and all those in authority.
Add to this that it has been translated, and you don't always know if the translation's right. People often interpret the bible wrong, because they don't know the culture, the history, the language it comes from.
Now, when you go to church, they don't tell you this, do they!
For the average person the Bible's too hard to understand. So why would God expect people to read something like this and be able to understand it. Well, people might argue, God's Spirit helps people to understand it. Well, I'm not saying he doesn't. But I haven't met many Christians who understand much of it. And anyway, you need to understand culture and history etc to understand much of it - and i haven't met any Christians who God has revealed this to them directly.
Does God expect us to believe anything else, or any other book is absolutely true merely cause we think we ought. Don't think so. So why would he expect this of us regarding the bible? |
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ChristianWoman1
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Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
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God did not give us the bible to confuse us....if you're not understanding something you're reading then you need to ask the Holy Spirit to unlock that for you!
EVERY word in the bible was composed by God-2Timothy3:16-17
if someone / something is telling you it[ scripture] is false run FAST the other way!
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Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
ROMANS 12:2 |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| ChristianWoman1 wrote: | God did not give us the bible to confuse us....if you're not understanding something you're reading then you need to ask the Holy Spirit to unlock that for you!
EVERY word in the bible was composed by God-2Timothy3:16-17
if someone / something is telling you it[ scripture] is false run FAST the other way! |
See, this is a great example of loss of context. When that verse was written, "The Bible" was the Old Testament alone. But plenty of people use it as if it means that the whole of the Bible as we know it now must have been composed by God (and "every word in the Bible was composed by God" was a pretty horrible translation of the verse to begin with).
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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ChristianWoman1
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Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | ChristianWoman1 wrote: | God did not give us the bible to confuse us....if you're not understanding something you're reading then you need to ask the Holy Spirit to unlock that for you!
EVERY word in the bible was composed by God-2Timothy3:16-17
if someone / something is telling you it[ scripture] is false run FAST the other way! |
See, this is a great example of loss of context. When that verse was written, "The Bible" was the Old Testament alone. But plenty of people use it as if it means that the whole of the Bible as we know it now must have been composed by God (and "every word in the Bible was composed by God" was a pretty horrible translation of the verse to begin with). |
it says what it says...and I believe what the bible says. 
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Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
ROMANS 12:2 |
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MrLucas
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: . |
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While not wanting to try and pull people's contributions to peices, I have to challenge in order to debate.
Firstly - EVERY word in the bible was composed by God-2Timothy3:16-17 argument doesn't answer the question 'why would God expect us to believe the bible?'. This was the topic/question raised. Using that as an argument ASSUMES for a start that the bible is all true. The bible itself saying it is true doesn't make it true. It's a circular argument. If Alice in Alice in Wonderland had somewhere in the book addressed the reader and said, 'by the way, this is all true', it wouldn't make it any more true.
If someone asks you why you believe the bible is true and you say, because it says in the bible it's true, it is no evidence, no arguement for people to believe it, unless you ALREADY assume that it's true. But that takes us back to the original question - Why should we believe the bible, why would God expect us to believe it. |
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MrLucas
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: . |
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Christianwoman1 said..."God did not give us the bible to confuse us....if you're not understanding something you're reading then you need to ask the Holy Spirit to unlock that for you! if someone / something is telling you it[ scripture] is false run FAST the other way!"
Assumptions verses reasons. Nothing wrong with assumptions, I suppose. We all make them all the time. People can make assumptions if they want. However, i like to challenge them sometimes. The thing is CW1 in the above you are assuming God gave us the bible, or the whole bible. You're assuming God's Spirit will reveal to us directly things that can only be understood by knowing hystorical, cultural context and more sometimes. And you're assuming again that it is all true if God's always going to reveal meaning for us. Again who says its all true - and if it isn't then God's not going to reveal meaning through it if it isn't his truth.
I have trouble with this run away fast idea too. Like I said, holding onto beliefs is fine i think but having to run away from challenge long term if you're up to the challenge isn't facing all we could. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ChristianWoman1 wrote: | | it says what it says...and I believe what the bible says. |
I can't even find a Bible that translates 2 Timothy 16 "EVERY word in the bible was composed by God." Very few if any even hint that God wrote the Bible, most if not all translate it something like "All Scripture is inspired by God."
And sure, that's what it says. But to claim it refers to anything beyond what we now call the Old Testament is absolute nonsense, because none of what is now known as the New Testament was considered part of "scripture" at that time.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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ChristianWoman1
Labrador
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | ChristianWoman1 wrote: | | it says what it says...and I believe what the bible says. |
I can't even find a Bible that translates 2 Timothy 16 "EVERY word in the bible was composed by God." Very few if any even hint that God wrote the Bible, most if not all translate it something like "All Scripture is inspired by God." |
you are right...I apologize...2 Tim.3:16 does say "ALL scripture is inspired by God..." I was paraphrasing because in my mind this is how it reads.
| Quote: | | And sure, that's what it says. But to claim it refers to anything beyond what we now call the Old Testament is absolute nonsense, because none of what is now known as the New Testament was considered part of "scripture" at that time. |
But it is NOT nonsense. I understand what you're saying, that they were talking of OT , but we as believers today see scripture as ALL OT AND NT...to believe the NT NOT to be inspired by God, now THAT'S nonsense, IMO.
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Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
ROMANS 12:2 |
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ChristianWoman1
Labrador
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: Re: . |
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| MrLucas wrote: | Christianwoman1 said..."God did not give us the bible to confuse us....if you're not understanding something you're reading then you need to ask the Holy Spirit to unlock that for you! if someone / something is telling you it[ scripture] is false run FAST the other way!"
Assumptions verses reasons. Nothing wrong with assumptions, I suppose. We all make them all the time. People can make assumptions if they want. However, i like to challenge them sometimes. The thing is CW1 in the above you are assuming God gave us the bible, or the whole bible. You're assuming God's Spirit will reveal to us directly things that can only be understood by knowing hystorical, cultural context and more sometimes. And you're assuming again that it is all true if God's always going to reveal meaning for us. Again who says its all true - and if it isn't then God's not going to reveal meaning through it if it isn't his truth. |
I reponded to this "assumption" you keep saying in another post...nobody who is in Christ is assuming anything, it's called having FAITH
Do I have faith that ALL scripture is true and inspired by God? ABSOLUTELY! 
| Quote: | | I have trouble with this run away fast idea too. Like I said, holding onto beliefs is fine i think but having to run away from challenge long term if you're up to the challenge isn't facing all we could. |
running from challenge is not what's happening here. I don't run from challenge, but instead I choose to follow scripture when it tells me : "Don't waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don't throw your pearls to the pigs. They will trample the pearls and turn and attack you." Matt.7 :6
and again..."Don't correct mockers [unbelievers] they will only hate you." Prov. 9:8
I"m not going to spend time trying to convince you that Holy Scripture is the true word of God, that's not my job as a Christian. Perhaps God will change your heart (2 Tim.2:23)
I can't debate this truth, because the Scripture, ALL scripture is TRUE inspired by God....period.
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Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
ROMANS 12:2 |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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If I may jump in...
| MrLucas wrote: |
The thing is CW1 in the above you are assuming God gave us the bible, or the whole bible. You're assuming God's Spirit will reveal to us directly things that can only be understood by knowing hystorical, cultural context and more sometimes. And you're assuming again that it is all true if God's always going to reveal meaning for us. |
I want to reiterate a point CW1 made:
| Quote: | nobody who is in Christ is assuming anything, it's called having FAITH
Do I have faith that ALL scripture is true and inspired by God? ABSOLUTELY! |
We are given assurances in scripture that it is His Holy Inspired Word - we accept those assurances in faith, and subsequently we accept the assurances given to us in His Word as true, such as: The revelation by the Holy Spirit of the truth of His Word.
| MrLucas wrote: | | But that takes us back to the original question - Why should we believe the bible, why would God expect us to believe it. |
I would challenge you to demonstrate anywhere where it has been established that God expects anyone other than the faithful to believe His Word.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 702
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| MrLucas wrote: | | "Does God expect us to believe anything else, or any other book as absolutely true merely because we think we ought. I don't think so. So why would he expect this of us regarding the bible?" |
Personally, Lucas, I think your question was excellent. After all, if we are never challenged in our beliefs, then we never truly know for certain what we believe.
It's funny, though, because I intended to post the exact same question that JP posed: namely, "What made you suspect that God expects people to believe the Bible?" I'm not aware of any verse in Scripture that states such a thing.
After all, He didn't give Adam and Eve a Bible. Enoch didn't have one. Noah didn't have one. Abraham had nothing of the sort. In fact, nobody had anything written down until nearly three or four thousand years after creation! And, even then, those who had it written down were few in number and lived in a tiny little country way out in the desert.
| MrLucas wrote: | | "For the average person the Bible's too hard to understand. So why would God expect people to read something like this and be able to understand it?" |
Your statement is true, and the question that follows is quite valid. The Bible can be very difficult to understand - and for more reasons than just historical culture. In my opinion, the Bible teaches principles, through the use of parables and stories and sometimes even direct commandments. And we often lose sight of those principles because we focus so intently on the parable/story/commandment.
After all, it's more fun to argue over words than it is to discuss underlying principles.
GOD UNDERSTANDS
I believe that God gave us an excellent example to illustrate the principle you questioned above: that is, "How does God expect people to read something like this and be able to understand it?" The answer, I believe, is found in the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch (recorded in Acts 8:26-39).
As Philip walked by the Ethiopian's chariot, he overheard the eunuch reading from the Old Testament book of Isaiah. So he approached the vehicle and asked him, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And the eunuch answered him, "How can I, unless another man show me?"
I believe this was God's way of assuring us, "It's alright if you don't understand all this stuff, because it's not easy. So, don't be embarrassed or afraid to discuss it with others, if you feel the need." I believe God was telling us, through this story, that He understands how difficult all this is... and He doesn't expect us to figure it all out on our own. He wants us to work together... to reason together... to find the answers to our most difficult questions... together.
| Someone above wrote: | | "I don't run from challenge, but instead I choose to follow scripture when it tells me, 'Don't waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don't throw your pearls to the pigs. They will trample the pearls and turn and attack you.' Matt.7 :6 and again... 'Don't correct mockers [unbelievers], for they will only hate you." Prov. 9:8 I'm not going to spend time trying to convince you that Holy Scripture is the true word of God, that's not my job as a Christian. Perhaps God will change your heart." |
I apologize for this sort of response, Lucas. I hope they weren't using Scripture to suggest that you are an unholy, pig-headed scoffer. But, as I'm sure you know, you will often receive responses like this when you question something in Scripture (or when you question Scripture itself). But I didn't sense any ill will in your question, and I think it would do us good to try and answer it. And, if we can't answer it, then hopefully it will help us to reflect deeper within ourselves. Deeper reflection is, after all, a good thing and (I believe) God's intent.
BLIND FAITH VERSUS TRUST
I'm probably one of the fortunate few who doesn't base his trust in God's word on blind faith. Rather, I base my trust in God's Word on the concrete evidence found in His Word which has been verified through historical records.
And yes, those in the scientific camp always laugh when I say that, because they want so badly to dismiss everything in the book as silly superstition. But it's not. There is some powerful stuff in that book that will blow the lid right off a man's mind.
So I'm not sure that God expects anyone to just blindly accept Scripture as fact. He's given us plenty of evidence in the book itself for us to look at, diagnose, and determine for ourselves whether or not He is who He says He is.
So please, tell us, What gave you the impression that God expected us to accept Scripture as fact? |
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MrLucas
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: . |
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I won't respond to posters by name because i have ME and my mind gets muddled because of it and it would take me more time than i've got.
A comment from another..."So please, tell us, What gave you the impression that God expected us to accept Scripture as fact?"
From past experience it is common for fundamentalist/ charasmatic evangelists/pastors/churches to claim that the Bible is all the word of God and that a repentant person chooses to believe it is absolutely true even literally true. Even if they have not read it.
Another idea is that the Holy Spirit will convict you that the bible is all true and this 'faith' will enable you to believe it. Yet in most if not every case I would think a person in religious/spiritual authority has told a person that the Bible is all true or that the person needs to believe the Bible is all true in order to be a true believer or to be fully repentant. And if people are influenced by the authority of the person/people or like other things the people are saying or want to please the other person then they will believe. And it is not a hard step for many to believe that, as the book has histrotically been regarded as something holy and special.
Added to this the opportunity to 'have access to God's wisdom, prophecy, truth, etc. etc.' it is appealing. It is an easy step to believe something you haven't even read. And there's even more of an incentive if they're telling you you will burn in hell forever and ever if you don't believe it and become a liberal wishy-washing lukewarm christian.
I'm not saying there's no such thing as spiritual faith. However, we can assume our faith is spiritual faith when a lot of it is actually assuption. And it can stem out of a desire to please, fear, a desire to believe. And this is all fine if we find this helpful or it works for us. However, not everyone can stay comfortable with this. |
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bigape
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Proverbs 19:27
“Cease, my son, to hear the instruction [that causeth] to err from the words of knowledge.”
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Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it. |
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admin
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Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1815
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hi MrLucas,
Actually, I DID learn the things in your original post at church. Learned that during Confirmation in Lutheran church. Confirmation is the two years of studies kids do in 8th and 9th grade.
You may enjoy the debates online between Chopra and Michael Shermer. Used to really be into Chopra, don't care for his writing now. A little foo foo for me.
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| GC wrote: | | I apologize for this sort of response, Lucas. I hope they weren't using Scripture to suggest that you are an unholy, pig-headed scoffer. But, as I'm sure you know, you will often receive responses like this when you question something in Scripture (or when you question Scripture itself). But I didn't sense any ill will in your question, and I think it would do us good to try and answer it. And, if we can't answer it, then hopefully it will help us to reflect deeper within ourselves. Deeper reflection is, after all, a good thing and (I believe) God's intent. |
I wouldn't go so far as to apologize for someone if I did not know their intent...
The passages posted here were legitimate. They could have been explained a bit better as to why they were used, but I choose to think the message wasn't intended as one of accusation or ridicule.
There are those in this world that will deny anything scriptural, or the inspiration of scripture, regardless of the reasons we've given them for our faith. Those passages are telling us not to waste time and breath trying to offer something to those who will flatly refuse it in any case.
| Quote: | | I'm probably one of the fortunate few who doesn't base his trust in God's word on blind faith. |
I would be hesitant about placing myself in a category separate from all the other faithful. It has been my experience that those of the faith, particularly those who participate on these boards, have reasoned out their faith and do not 'blindly' accept anything.
| MrLucas wrote: | From past experience it is common for fundamentalist/ charasmatic evangelists/pastors/churches to claim that the Bible is all the word of God and that a repentant person chooses to believe it is absolutely true even literally true. Even if they have not read it.
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So your question then isn't really about God expecting us to believe the bible is His Holy Inspired Word, but rather about men and women of religion expecting us to believe it, yes?
| Quote: | Added to this the opportunity to 'have access to God's wisdom, prophecy, truth, etc. etc.' it is appealing. It is an easy step to believe something you haven't even read. And there's even more of an incentive if they're telling you you will burn in hell forever and ever if you don't believe it and become a liberal wishy-washing lukewarm christian.
I'm not saying there's no such thing as spiritual faith. However, we can assume our faith is spiritual faith when a lot of it is actually assuption. And it can stem out of a desire to please, fear, a desire to believe. |
All this is based of course on the assumption that no one reads their bibles, or studies them, or investigates other scholarship connected to or pertaining to the bible (anthropology, archeology, sociology, etc.) or has challenged their own faith, or has come to their faith from avenues other than having it spoon-fed to them from childhood. These assumptions do little other than to sell short the intelligence and conviction of the faithful.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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