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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | Airyaman wrote: | | eleven wrote: | Airyaman,
You misundertood my question. I said give me a PRINCIPLE that is in the Bible that is not true. |
What principles are you looking for? That a women who has a female child is unclean for twice as long as one who had a male child? Or that it is fine to beat a slave to death as long as the slave does not die immediately? Or that it is a sin to divorce an abusive spouse as long as they don't cheat on you? |
Is this response basically your attempt to shout so loud that people forget what the question was? You have ignored the question. Eleven has asked about the distinction between the letter and the spirit of the law, and you have gone right back to the letter, not even attempting a real response to the issue. |
Virbate you have a point there regarding laws vs. principle. Thank you.
Airyaman, let's see if we can help you out to give you a better understanding.
Things like, "an eye for an eye" or "being unclean" were laws of the land that were set up in order to govern the people at the time, and believe it or not, they still exist today, although they might be worded differently.
For example - the law, "an eye for an eye" .
That means whatever you take from someone, you will have to repay with one of your own.
So today, if someone murders, they will have to go thru the court system, and if found guilty, they will have to give up their life as well, see?
But a principle is, as Virbate said, the spirit of the law.
So when Jesus comes along in the New Testament and says, You have heard it said, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you the truth, pray for your enemies and overcome evil with good.
That almost sounds like it's a contradiction, doesn't it?
But it's not!
The first on is stated as a prevention to stop crime.
If an offender violates this law, a judge intervenes to correct the violation.
The second one stated is ALSO to stop crime, but in a spiritual way. In this way, God intervenes and sets the offending party straight.
The only difference between the two is, the first one costs us billions of tax dollars each year, and the second on is free!
Now honestly, which one is TRULY the better choice?
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Pain is inevitable;
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Airyaman
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | | Airyman wrote: | Who was David's great grandparents? Ruth and Boaz.
Rth 4:5 Then Boaz said, "The day you buy the field from the hand of Naomi, you also acquire Ruth the Moabite, the widow of the dead, in order to perpetuate the name of the dead in his inheritance." |
There are answers to your questions but I can tell by your quote below that you are not interested in answers. I hope that you enjoy your time here. |
Then answer them. No verbal gymnastics and eisegesis, real answers. Ruth was a Moabite, plain and simple. |
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Airyaman
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | Airyaman wrote: | | eleven wrote: | Airyaman,
You misunderstood my question. I said give me a PRINCIPLE that is in the Bible that is not true. |
What principles are you looking for? That a women who has a female child is unclean for twice as long as one who had a male child? Or that it is fine to beat a slave to death as long as the slave does not die immediately? Or that it is a sin to divorce an abusive spouse as long as they don't cheat on you? |
Is this response basically your attempt to shout so loud that people forget what the question was? You have ignored the question. Eleven has asked about the distinction between the letter and the spirit of the law, and you have gone right back to the letter, not even attempting a real response to the issue. |
What shouting? I'm just pointing out biblical principles, I do not agree with them. If you believe the bible is true, you should be able to go beyond "it is written".
And the last addresses the "spirit of the law" as Jesus was the one who doled out the divorce stipulations. That leaves it wide open for one spouse to abuse another because the abused would be sinning if they left.
| Quote: | | Well, for the record, the distinction made by Eleven is still clear. Are you really interested in honest discussion at all? If so, you should deal with the issue. Not to try ganging up, but what Ragman said about you not wanting to really discuss is seeming more probable. |
Perhaps, but thus far almost all that people have responded to me with has been ambiguous. Therefore, what's to discuss?
| Quote: | | Still, it's not too late to change pace. Let's give it a try. Let's talk about the distinction between the letter and the law, and let's re-approach the Bible message to see what really happened. How does that sound? |
Can you truly tell me what the "spirit of the Law" means?
| Quote: | | ... or is that your way of simply saying that you feel the old testament shows a different morality to the new. I guess it is. Sorry for not understanding until now, but you should just state it clearly next time. I'm sure that there are many people out here who are happy to explain how the issues you have raised do not contradict the message of love. For now, let me just ask, do you believe in discipline, or do you think it's right to allow someone you love, who is in error, to make their own mistakes? |
Did your god change his mind? It was supposed to be his law in the OT, why change? |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Airyaman-
Talk to me please.
What is your question?
I'm listening.
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Airyaman, I appreciate that you have finally asked the question that's been bothering you, "What is the Spirit of the law", and "did God change His mind". This is the topic that some others have been trying to bring you to, as well as myself.
I note that you didn't answer my question about discipline.
Basically what you're doing wrong, which is causing so much confusion, is that you're reading the Bible as a religious book, which it is not. The Way is a natural human principle of life - a relationship or an understanding, and not a religion at all. The churches and preachers try to turn it into a religion, so I understand your confusion. I'm not trying to come down on you in any way. In fact I would expect anyone to read and misinterpret the Bible as you have done - I did the same thing once.
Short answer about the letter and spirit of the law: The key is to remember that God's law is about an understanding, and a Way of life. It is not just a set of rules to follow "because He said so, and He is right". The word "Torah" means teaching. On mt. Sinai God gave His teaching to the nation. That teaching was His side of a covenant. Basically He was saying, "this is the right way to live and I'll make a deal with you that you follow this and be my people and I'll be your God". He said, life comes from following this teaching, and death if you go the other way. It's like saying to your child: "Don't drink from bottles with the skull and crossbones on it". Therefore the spirit of the law was that it was intended to teach (Torah), and to guide, and to be a help so that Israel could have the good life. That has always been the point - the good life.
Then Jesus came along thousands of years later. Remember that He was speaking to the descendants of those who received the Torah. Israel had gone through a lot, and they were a different, wiser people now. If you have gone through things in life and learned about yourself, you know what I mean. And if your parents and grandparents and ancestors went through stuff and passed the knowledge down to you, you know what I mean.
The Torah was for a young nation who thought like Egyptian slaves. But it wasn't applicable in Jesus day, which is why Jesus arrived at that time. The world was ready for Him - Paul calls it the "nexus of time". The Torah was just a trial run of God's word, and not meant to show the way. In fact it was meant to STATE the way, so that Israel could learn about themselves and be prepared for turning to God. The primitive system of "live this way and I'll take care of you" did not work, and was not the way to approach Israel to teach them now. They were ready to see the whole story - Jesus.
If you're familiar with coaching, teaching or parenting, you know that the teacher often sets goals that he knows the student won't be able to achieve, just to put them in the place to learn the right way to do it. You've seen kungfu movies, right... grab the stone?
Jesus explained that the divorce clause was not really the natural way of life that God intends, but it was something He instituted to help make the Torah doable. Jesus explained that you can't really marry someone then just divorce them... it's wrong.
As far as it being a license for abuse, I hope you can agree that this was a silly thing to say. Jesus didn't say to let them abuse you; He said not to divorce them. There's still separation available, with counseling, or a million other ways to deal with abuse. Consider what Paul suggests for dealing with abuse - talk to them quietly, and if that doesn't work then bring a couple witnesses, then if that doesn't work then bring the whole church.
Just loosen up and stop letting the preachers and churches control how you read the Bible. Those guys are in terrible trouble for misleading the people as they do, and causing people to distrust God. But you can come out of their reach. |
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Airyaman
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | Airyaman-
Talk to me please.
What is your question?
I'm listening. |
I don't have any questions that I need answering. The only ones I ask are for you to answer in your own mind. |
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Airyaman
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | Airyaman, I appreciate that you have finally asked the question that's been bothering you, "What is the Spirit of the law", and "did God change His mind". This is the topic that some others have been trying to bring you to, as well as myself. |
I know all of this "spirit" and "letter" stuff. What it really boils down to is that the "Law" was nothing more than a priestly invention in the first place, created to hold power over the common people. Who in the world would truly ever believe that God would really savor the smell of burning meat?
| Quote: | | I note that you didn't answer my question about discipline. |
What question?
| Quote: | | Basically what you're doing wrong, which is causing so much confusion, is that you're reading the Bible as a religious book, which it is not. |
It is not. The bible is just a gigantic set of parables and myths that are meant to convey a message. Very little of it has any basis in actual real events. Think Grimm's Fairy Tales for Jewish people (and now Gentiles).
If Christians would stop believing that 85% of what was written in the bible actually happened, they'd actually learn something.
| Quote: | | The Way is a natural human principle of life - a relationship or an understanding, and not a religion at all. The churches and preachers try to turn it into a religion, so I understand your confusion. I'm not trying to come down on you in any way. In fact I would expect anyone to read and misinterpret the Bible as you have done - I did the same thing once. |
I don't "misinterpret" the bible. No more than you do. No one has a true idea of what the original writers were trying to convey in their various mythologies, so it is all guesses and conjecture.
| Quote: | | Short answer about the letter and spirit of the law: The key is to remember that God's law is about an understanding, and a Way of life. It is not just a set of rules to follow "because He said so, and He is right". The word "Torah" means teaching. |
Yes, but not all teaching is relevant. Sometimes teaching can lead people astray if what is being taught is invalid. The Torah, as written, is merely a priestly invention.
| Quote: | | On mt. Sinai God gave His teaching to the nation. |
Jer 7:22 For in the day that I (Yahweh) brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
| Quote: | | That teaching was His side of a covenant. Basically He was saying, "this is the right way to live and I'll make a deal with you that you follow this and be my people and I'll be your God". |
Do you truly believe God cares about 75% (or more) of what was written in the Torah? Do you truly think he cares about what day you rest on? Do you truly think God inspired the various rules about menstruation, virgins, where to poop, and beating of slaves?
| Quote: | | He said, life comes from following this teaching, and death if you go the other way. It's like saying to your child: "Don't drink from bottles with the skull and crossbones on it". |
Is that a godly inspiration, or does it come from prior knowledge about the consequences?
Did you know that circumcision was practiced by Egyptians long before the Jews?
| Quote: | | Therefore the spirit of the law was that it was intended to teach (Torah), and to guide, and to be a help so that Israel could have the good life. That has always been the point - the good life. |
You need to re-evaluate the Torah. Basically, the Torah assured that someone would always be sinning, providing the sellers of pigeons with a steady income and the Levitical priests with a source of food.
| Quote: | | Then Jesus came along thousands of years later. |
Think hard about that. Why wait thousands of years?
| Quote: | Remember that He was speaking to the descendants of those who received the Torah. Israel had gone through a lot, and they were a different, wiser people now. If you have gone through things in life and learned about yourself, you know what I mean. And if your parents and grandparents and ancestors went through stuff and passed the knowledge down to you, you know what I mean.
The Torah was for a young nation who thought like Egyptian slaves. |
Are you trying to say it takes 1000s of years to learn something? Many Jews are still living by Torah today, so are you saying they are stupid?
| Quote: | | But it wasn't applicable in Jesus day, which is why Jesus arrived at that time. The world was ready for Him - Paul calls it the "nexus of time". The Torah was just a trial run of God's word, and not meant to show the way. |
Isn't that rather a cruel way to treat people for so long?
| Quote: | | In fact it was meant to STATE the way, so that Israel could learn about themselves and be prepared for turning to God. The primitive system of "live this way and I'll take care of you" did not work, and was not the way to approach Israel to teach them now. They were ready to see the whole story - Jesus. |
It did not work because it NEVER was of God! It was a man-made system of rules. I can't believe you can't get this out of what Jesus, or many of the prophets, were saying. God never gave it, so it didn't teach anyone anything other than to discern between man and God.
Sadly, the message of Jesus was lost when Paul hit the scene. You are likely not a Christian, but a Paulian.
| Quote: | | If you're familiar with coaching, teaching or parenting, you know that the teacher often sets goals that he knows the student won't be able to achieve, just to put them in the place to learn the right way to do it. You've seen kungfu movies, right... grab the stone? |
Yes, but that happens within a lifetime, not 1000s of years. A God of love would not be so cruel.
| Quote: | | Jesus explained that the divorce clause was not really the natural way of life that God intends, but it was something He instituted to help make the Torah doable. Jesus explained that you can't really marry someone then just divorce them... it's wrong. |
How do you know what Jesus intended? Did you ask him? Or do you have the right magic decoder ring?
| Quote: | | As far as it being a license for abuse, I hope you can agree that this was a silly thing to say. Jesus didn't say to let them abuse you; He said not to divorce them. |
It was not silly, because it happens all too often. How can some spouse stop the abuse? Would not divorce and distancing from that abusive spouse be an answer?
| Quote: | | There's still separation available, with counseling, or a million other ways to deal with abuse. |
Yes, there is separation, but what if the abuser will not stop. Will the abused then be forced to live out the rest of life alone because the Jesus of the bible said it was a "sin" to divorce and remarry?
| Quote: | | Consider what Paul suggests for dealing with abuse - talk to them quietly, and if that doesn't work then bring a couple witnesses, then if that doesn't work then bring the whole church. |
And what will that truly accomplish? What if the abusive spouse could give a rat's patutty about the church?
| Quote: | | Just loosen up and stop letting the preachers and churches control how you read the Bible. |
Everyone has their own interpretation of the bible. Its called SPAG, or "Self projection as God". That is, you feel your interpretation is what God truly means.
| Quote: | | Those guys are in terrible trouble for misleading the people as they do, and causing people to distrust God. But you can come out of their reach. |
Actually, the fact that the bible can be interpreted in so many different ways truly shows it is NOT the work of God. It is purely of men, and leads to factions. God is truly not the author of confusion, but many are confused about the bible. Therefore, it is a wholly human work.
I must say I find it funny how you recommend bringing an abusive person before the church, but then say not to listen to the church in another breath. Make up your mind. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| You don't even know which question I asked about discipline, two posts ago. |
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Airyaman quote:
Everyone has their own interpretation of the bible. Its called SPAG, or "Self projection as God". That is, you feel your interpretation is what God truly means.(quote)
Excellent. 
So what is your SPAG. 
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Siam wrote: | Airyaman quote:
Everyone has their own interpretation of the bible. Its called SPAG, or "Self projection as God". That is, you feel your interpretation is what God truly means.(quote)
Excellent.
So what is your SPAG. |
Ok Airyaman, what you say is true. But that's actually a GOOD thing because even though we each have our own interpretation of the Bible, you can tell who is a real child of God and a true Brother in Christ to you because those who are REAL are willing to listen to your interpretation, share theirs with you, and admit when they made a mistake.
The Brothers are here to unite and return to the ONE.
The ones that want to bombard you with "religion" just want to be a pain in the *ss.
Push past THEM and reunite with the Brothers who are looking for you.
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Siam
Bear
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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...and we have never seen airyaman again...
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Airyaman wrote: | | eleven wrote: | Airyaman-
Talk to me please.
What is your question?
I'm listening. |
I don't have any questions that I need answering. The only ones I ask are for you to answer in your own mind. |
My mind is nothing without my brothers.
I need you.
So talk to me.
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Pain is inevitable;
misery is optional. |
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