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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | eleven wrote: | Hi Virbate,
Ok, to tell you the truth, I'm confused.
True doctrine vs. false doctrine vs. doctrinism vs. racism.
Who gets to determine?
Let's not make it more complicated than it is:
Love the Lord your God with all your mind, your soul, your body, your strength.
Love your neighbor as you love your self.
As for any other "doctrine", you can toss it all into the circular file. |
I agree with your sentiments about keeping it simple. Everything is just about that first commandment, and the second one, too. I'm not complicating things, just stating the rule when it comes to knowing truth from error. If you didn't understand what I wrote, what part can I explain further?
I'm just making the point that doctrinism is faith in doctrine (without God at the source), which is false. Most of the churches today are caught up in some form of doctrinism, since doctrinism is closely tied with the pulpit/congregation model as well as the theology that came down from Roman Catholicism. |
I tend to agree with you. There is much out there that is all religion, and very little God. But that usually occurs when people feel their job is to tell other people everything that is wrong with them.
No thanks.
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ShardikSon
Bear Cub
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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From the last several posts, it seems the interpretation of MrLucas' question is whether the Bible is believed to be doctrine.
Not really the same as Truth.
So I am chiming in.
Yes, a lot of Christians believe that the Bible is true, or truth, in the manner that it is THE absolute, and no other documents are of any import, and any thought, belief, teaching, or "doctrine" stands. Period. I have family in that category.
For me, I tend to lean in the direction of a few here, who think life and faith are simpler things.
Love one another as you would love yourself, and love God with all your heart and all your soul.
That, I agree, pretty well sums up the "doctrine" of the Bible.
If we all followed that simple commandment, always, we would find a world that is much more agreeable, and livable.
However, is the Bible True? yes.
Is the Bible Truth? Yes.
Is the Word of God in the Bible? Yes.
Every day, I find truth in the Bible, that directly relates to my life, and my relationship with people, with family, and with God.
May you all be blessed and may you want for nothing that God provides.
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Amen!!!
The "proof" to me that the Bible is true is because it works!
From Genesis to Revelation, these principles ring true every time, whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Atheist or whatever.
Call yourself what you will, regardless we ALL go back to the same basic principles.
But there will always be those who will try to disprove it.
Be my guest. I don't have to worry about it because truth will always stand - there is no destroying it no matter how hard you try.
So my question to those would be -
If you know better (and there were thousands before you who thought the same thing) then why is the Bible still an issue?
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Really the biggest obstacle between mankind and the truth is the system of false doctrine in the churches. They "block the way, and do not go in themselves" like the Pharisees and lawyers did 2000 years ago.
The big problem is that believers must learn how to establish the truth. We need to demand that the preachers stop promoting doctrinism. God says that every preacher and church must explicitly and implicitly acknowledge the supremacy of nature. Also, they must proactively affirm this supremacy at all times.
When believers allow preachers and churches to continue teaching and thinking as the world does, in terms of doctrine, we are allowing the whole world to curse God. I'm not saying this by way of blame or condemnation, but simply to point out the solution, which is that believers must teach the full Natural Gospel without reservation or hesitation - naturally and from the heart. We must do away with the current Pharasaical model in the churches. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: |
When believers allow preachers and churches to continue teaching and thinking as the world does, in terms of doctrine, we are allowing the whole world to curse God. I'm not saying this by way of blame or condemnation, but simply to point out the solution, which is that believers must teach the full Natural Gospel without reservation or hesitation - naturally and from the heart. We must do away with the current Pharasaical model in the churches. |
Can't argue with one word of that. I agree with you.
However there is still one itsy bitsy problem (and the reason so many "religions" persist, not to mention holy wars, etc)
Most people do not read their Bibles!
Most people who attend churches have never even read a Bible, let alone study it.
They don't think it is there responsibility to do so.
They rely on the clergy of whatever religion or church to dictate what they are supposed to do.
So maybe we as evangelists, need to go back to square one. Forget sharing the "good news". Maybe we should start a "READ YOUR BIBLE" campaign?
That's something that has never been tried before. 
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ChristianWoman1
Labrador
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | Virbate wrote: |
When believers allow preachers and churches to continue teaching and thinking as the world does, in terms of doctrine, we are allowing the whole world to curse God. I'm not saying this by way of blame or condemnation, but simply to point out the solution, which is that believers must teach the full Natural Gospel without reservation or hesitation - naturally and from the heart. We must do away with the current Pharasaical model in the churches. |
Can't argue with one word of that. I agree with you.
However there is still one itsy bitsy problem (and the reason so many "religions" persist, not to mention holy wars, etc)
Most people do not read their Bibles!
Most people who attend churches have never even read a Bible, let alone study it.
They don't think it is there responsibility to do so.
They rely on the clergy of whatever religion or church to dictate what they are supposed to do.
So maybe we as evangelists, need to go back to square one. Forget sharing the "good news". Maybe we should start a "READ YOUR BIBLE" campaign?
That's something that has never been tried before. |
how interesting that you said that eleven...
I was just talking with my mother the other day who is a devout Catholic. I asked her why I never had a bible of my own as a child...why we never read scripture together when I was little...why wasn't Scripture talked about in our home??? She explained why the Roman Catholics listen to the Pope...because they believe him to be so holy that they trust what they are taught in church to be true. She said "we shouldn't go trying to figure out scripture on our own bc so many people translate it wrong...that's why we have the pope"
hmmm....I wonder why she never asked for wisdom when reading scripture? to unlock any confusion she may have. I"ll have to go back into this conversation with her I guess. It's not like she doesn't read the bible bc BOTH of my parents do...they just trust what the church teaches over themselves I guess.
anyhow...a good point you made. I agree...lets start a "READ YOUR BIBLE" campaign 
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Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| ChristianWoman1 wrote: |
why wasn't Scripture talked about in our home??? She explained why the Roman Catholics listen to the Pope...because they believe him to be so holy that they trust what they are taught in church to be true. She said "we shouldn't go trying to figure out scripture on our own bc so many people translate it wrong...that's why we have the pope"
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This is precisely why religion can be so dangerous.
A war is an extreme example, but let's look at it from just an everyday situation.
Pastor so and so gets up and says, God wants us to do...........whatever. Unless you KNOW your Bible, how do you know what Pastor so and so, is saying is true???
Just because he wears a collar don't mean his heart is with God. How many religious leaders manipulate their churches for things God never said?
Remember Jim Jones??? 
Scripture says, My people suffer for lack of knowledge.
I can't for the life of me understand why people even bother getting out of bed on Sunday to go to church when they don't have the vaguest clue who Jesus was, and what He represents.
And further, how do you think God feels about this?
Isaiah 29: 13
The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
Who are we fooling? Only ourselves.
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Definitely the Bible is vital. And the Pope, from the beginning of his office, has been all about dividing God's people, and keeping us away from the Kingdom. That's why the Papal system encourages followers to put away their natural understanding.
People think that this strategy ended when Protestantism was allowed, but the fact is that protestantism is just more of the same, in a different form. All the protestant churches adopted the theology and practice of the pastor/congregation model, which is not natural.
The Bible by itself has this limitation, that it can be used by misleaders through the power of interpretation. That is why it is so important that we show that the Bible is all about natural things, and not about doctrinism. Every cultish system relies on doctrinism to maintain itself. So by teaching nature we establish the truth.
Another point is that you cannot just dump a whole Bible on people. It is a big book, and everyone knows that it is controversial. So hardly anyone would be willing to "test" God's word by reading the whole Bible. People have life to live, and that is an unfair expectation to want them to read the Bible. What we need to do is tell them about the Natural Gospel, which speaks from one human being to another, in practical, natural, human terms. This way, they will hear the message of the Bible.
Naturally they will then ask for more info, and the Bible will naturally come into play at the right time. No need to try to force it. Just talk to people about life, and the human condition, and naturally you will come to the point of truth, and that is how you teach people. Honestly the Bible is a terrible place to start. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: |
Another point is that you cannot just dump a whole Bible on people. It is a big book, and everyone knows that it is controversial. So hardly anyone would be willing to "test" God's word by reading the whole Bible. People have life to live, and that is an unfair expectation to want them to read the Bible. What we need to do is tell them about the Natural Gospel, which speaks from one human being to another, in practical, natural, human terms. This way, they will hear the message of the Bible. |
I vehemently disagree with you here.
People will go to great lengths to acquire things they think are valuable.
If I went on the internet right now, and offered people a million dollars to read and study the Bible for one year, what do you think would happen?
The list of names would stretch from here to China!
Please explain to me how it is that the very people who "have to live" can find a way to park their behinds in front of Wal-mart for 3 days at Christmas time to buy the latest Play Station for a $800, but can't go to church for an hour a week, let alone drop 10 bucks in the basket. Let's get honest, shall we.
And as far as people having to live - that's true!
All God is trying to do, is be apart of their lives, and tell them how to do it with the least amount of suffering.
It's all there in black and white. But as with most people, we buy into the toys, and throw the instruction book away!
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Thank you eleven. I was simply pointing out that the value in the Bible is only understood by someone who is aware of what the Bible says.
For someone to read the Bible, they must have a reason that makes sense in their own value system. So if you rely on the value inherent in the Bible to draw people to read the Bible, then people who never read it are in a catch 22. They don't know its value since they never read it, and so they won't know that they need to read it.
God says that those who know the truth are salesmen, marketing the truth and bringing it to those who need it.
People will always think in natural terms, no matter who they are. The Bible, and more importantly the message in the Bible, must be presented in a way that allows people to naturally gravitate toward the message of truth. For this reason, the full Natural tradition of the Gospel must be taught in natural terms. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | Thank you eleven. I was simply pointing out that the value in the Bible is only understood by someone who is aware of what the Bible says.
For someone to read the Bible, they must have a reason that makes sense in their own value system. So if you rely on the value inherent in the Bible to draw people to read the Bible, then people who never read it are in a catch 22. They don't know its value since they never read it, and so they won't know that they need to read it.
God says that those who know the truth are salesmen, marketing the truth and bringing it to those who need it.
People will always think in natural terms, no matter who they are. The Bible, and more importantly the message in the Bible, must be presented in a way that allows people to naturally gravitate toward the message of truth. For this reason, the full Natural tradition of the Gospel must be taught in natural terms. |
Hey Virbate-
I have noticed in many of your posts, you refer to the natural gospel, the natural man.
I would very much like to explore this further.
Hows about you start a new thread about the natural Gospel. I am very intrigued by this.
Go Brother, Go!!!
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | Thank you eleven. I was simply pointing out that the value in the Bible is only understood by someone who is aware of what the Bible says.
For someone to read the Bible, they must have a reason that makes sense in their own value system. So if you rely on the value inherent in the Bible to draw people to read the Bible, then people who never read it are in a catch 22. They don't know its value since they never read it, and so they won't know that they need to read it.
God says that those who know the truth are salesmen, marketing the truth and bringing it to those who need it.
People will always think in natural terms, no matter who they are. The Bible, and more importantly the message in the Bible, must be presented in a way that allows people to naturally gravitate toward the message of truth. For this reason, the full Natural tradition of the Gospel must be taught in natural terms. |
Hey Virbate-
I have noticed in many of your posts, you refer to the natural gospel, the natural man.
I would very much like to explore this further.
Hows about you start a new thread about the natural Gospel. I am very intrigued by this.
Go Brother, Go!!! |
Thanks. That's a good idea. I actually have stuff up already, but I can do better now, since I learn more every day. Also, I should follow my own advice and not give you a whole load of reading material - just natural conversation. I'll go and put up a post reintroducing the topic, in the thread that already exists, called "Natural Gospel".
And if you do feel like reading, everything I've said on this site is on the same topic of the natural gospel. But the best result is if we discuss from a fresh perspective together, instead of bringing back the old posts. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: |
Thanks. That's a good idea. I actually have stuff up already, but I can do better now, since I learn more every day. Also, I should follow my own advice and not give you a whole load of reading material - just natural conversation. I'll go and put up a post reintroducing the topic, in the thread that already exists, called "Natural Gospel".
And if you do feel like reading, everything I've said on this site is on the same topic of the natural gospel. But the best result is if we discuss from a fresh perspective together, instead of bringing back the old posts. |
Deal! I'm looking for you.
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Airyaman
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | Airyaman wrote: | | eleven wrote: | There is no way to "prove" that the Bible is true except to try it for oneself, and see.
In fact, that's what scripture tells us to do.
So test it out for yourself
The only thing I will say from my own experience is, it is remarkable to me, despite the vast gaps in time, and the lack of mass media at the time, how remarkably well all the books tie in together. This goes way beyond coincidence. |
That is because you read it with the preconceived notion that it "ties in together". It is a book full of various polemics. |
So what you're saying is that if you personally can't see something that means it's not there? |
The bible is contradictory in several areas, and I'm not talking about your usual set of contradictions. The bible is not really a literal history, but a book compiled using the propaganda of several different factions of the Hebrew priest classes.
For instance, Deu 23:3 states Moabites could not be part of Israel, yet the most famous king of the OT was a Moabite (David).
Also, the prophet Jeremiah pretty much says the Torah was one big fat lie (Jer 7:22, 8:8). When Jesus overturned the money changers tables, he supported Jeremiah, as he often did when he broke Torah law. Jesus knew that the various laws of the Torah were man-made and were put in place to support the priest class and keep the people in check.
People accuse Christians -- and Jews for that matter -- of all believing different things and no wonder; the bible is full of opposing ideas. The idea that the bible is infallible and inerrant keeps its readers confused. |
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eleven
King of the Jungle
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Airyaman wrote: |
The bible is contradictory in several areas, and I'm not talking about your usual set of contradictions. The bible is not really a literal history, but a book compiled using the propaganda of several different factions of the Hebrew priest classes. |
Well then, we seem to agee.
Here try this.......the Bible is NOT contradictory, but incomplete. If there appear to be contradictions, (and I agree with you, on the surface, this appears to be true) it's only because the information is incomplete, not wrong.
For example:
In Genesis it states:
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
My question to you is this -
What was the light?
It couldn't be the sun because that wasn't created until days later, so what was the light? Do you know? I sure don't!
But my point is this. If I can't explain the Bible IN THE FIRST 3 LINES, how in the world can I explain the rest of it? The book, or rather the collection of 66 books is obviously incomplete! But that doesn't make what is written there , incorrect. Do you see what I mean?
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