Did 1st century Christians use fermented wine at the supper?

hat lady · Tadpole Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 24

Did first century Christians use fermented wine at the Lord's supper?

Give some grammatical proof of this one way or the other.

God Bless.
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Hi my name is hat lady and I like to do Bible Study Expository Sola Scriputra stlye. I am open to exploration of the scriputres.

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

hat lady · Tadpole Joined: 30 Jun 2008 Posts: 24

Dear Don,

I was not referring to whether or not we care one way or the other about whether we now are going to be using fermented wine. That was not the thrust, although I thoroughly understand your take on what I wrote as my question.

I was trying to find out from looking at the structure of the grammar there if the saints were getting drunk at the Lord's supper in the first century...

If it can't be done, I was looking for a grammatical explanation as to how it is not possible to be done.

I understand the significance of the actual practice as being an external symbol as you pointed out, but that was not my concern.

Would you consider that posing a question about something that is merely a symbol is perhaps a foray into a subject in the Bilble that has significance simply because it is a part of the Bible? And that not all discussions of topics from the Bible are meant to be central to our practice as Christians, but may be about some other aspect of Bible, like an historical aspect, or a grammatical aspect. Do you enjoy studying the Bible only for the application it brings to you? Or are you interested in every facet of the Bible, including historical practices, progressive history, grammar, author's intent, audience, or historical setting? Or is it all about whatever we can learn about the internalization of the central message and the internalization of the essence of a passage?

Whenever I come across something interesting about the Bible I ask about it. I don't expect anyone to understand why that is important to me, we all have a particular lens we put on when we look at the Bible, or parts of the Bible.

I like to find out who exactly the author was writing to and what the circumstances were and there is not always going to be a need to find a present day application, although there is always one there. The point of doing Bible study should be to find out what it is saying first before we do anything else with it and that is sometimes the only reason for studying. The question will always be, so why does this passage or text matter? The Bible is worth studying for it's own value and that is a good enough reason for any text or passage to matter, becuase it is the Bible.

I respect your take on things though, don't misunderstand my intent in replying to you please.

God Bless
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Hi my name is hat lady and I like to do Bible Study Expository Sola Scriputra stlye. I am open to exploration of the scriputres.

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

Thanks for the reply.

Of course we ought to be interested in what the text says, and have support from grammar (as well as other types of support) for a view if we can.

I didn't see anything in your original post which indicated that your real interest was whether the believers were getting drunk at the Lord's Supper.

What I saw you asking was whether we could grammatically says the wine was either fermented or unfermented. We cannot. And I can't prove it to you grammatically, because it's not a question of grammar at all.

As far as the question of people getting drunk, that is something Paul specifically mentions in 1 Cor 11.20 f. The word does not always mean to actually be drunk, but to have taken in so much that one is at the point of intoxication. Not much of a difference.

But notice that this was happening during the fellowship meal, not the actual Lord's Supper observance. The Corinthians observed the Lord's Supper in the course of that fellowship meal (or as some would call it a love feast). That was ok. But Paul's point is that the meal was hardly a fellowship meal at all, because instead of sharing the food and drink they brought the wealthier believers ate and drank it themselves, while the poorer believers, who had little or nothing to bring, went hungry.

Their practice was an outrageous denial of Christian fellowship. It was a real failure to "recognize the body" of Christ and made a mockery of Communion when the time came to break the bread of remembrance.

FFT · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:29 am Post subject:

Ryck · Lion King Joined: 05 Dec 2002 Posts: 1094

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

From Bible Answers:

JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1070

RevJP,

I didn't read all the posts, but I would be curious as to why they used new Wine skins. I believe that as the wine fermented the old skins would burst and the wine would be lost. Fermenting creates an expansion of area. There was no elasticity in the Old Skin. Simple logic tells me that they probably would have drank that wine if the skin didn't burst.

Scripture: Matthew 9:14-17 (Mark 2:21 f.; Luke 5:36-39)

14 Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?" 15 And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. 16 And no one puts a piece of unsprung cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. 17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."

JB

Ryck · Lion King Joined: 05 Dec 2002 Posts: 1094

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

There is also a quality issue with putting new wine in old skins. Kinda like pouring your wine in an empty vinegar bottle...

One question though: what does this have to do with wine vs. grape juice?

one other thing: Wine traditionally wasn't stored for fermentation in skins. It was put in barrels or jars to ferment and then put in skins for sale and use.
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JB · Lion King Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1070

RevJP,

Often times on long journeys the Grape juice would ferment depending upon the quality of the grape juice. Sugar ferments over time and some grapes have higher sugar content than does other grapes. The illusion that we need to add sugar or an additive to cause fermenting isn't necessarily true.

JB

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Ryck · Lion King Joined: 05 Dec 2002 Posts: 1094

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

It is true Ryck.
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