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Joebob787
Rattlesnake
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Nj
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 Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Should read up on those Laws, FFT
They do exist
Revelation 3:10
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
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Romans 1:16a I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes |
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GospelCompilation
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 702
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your renewed assurance, hat lady. My wife and I haven't been participating very long on this board, but we've already seen some offensive things tossed about... and it's not hard to get embroiled in it (I'm speaking from experience, of course). So, thank you again.
| GospelCompilation wrote: | | "Do you mean to say that God's people will be "taken up" (or, raptured) before Christ returns? If that's correct, then How did you come to such a conclusion?" |
We're perplexed as to why you chose not to answer this question. Was there a better way we could have asked it?
The reason we asked, of course, is because we only see two events mentioned in Scripture: namely, Jesus' first coming, and Jesus' second coming. At His return, the dead will be raised, the living will be translated, and everyone else will be killed by the brightness of Christ's appearance in an unquenchable conflagration (see, for example: Micah 1:3-4, Nahum 1:5-6, Malachi 4:1-3, II Thessalonians 2:8, and II Peter 3:10-12).
Since we accept both the Old and New Testament equally, we don't separate these verses from one another, but rather, we read them together. And we haven't found anything to support this idea of God's people being "caught up" before Jesus returns; rather, we see them being "caught up" when He returns.
| We both wrote: | "Where is the rapture explained in Revelation?"
"The fact is, the time frame for the rapture from a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation cannot be proved either way. It just is not possible from scripture to tell when the rapture takes place exactly. We only have allusions to certain things being the case during the tribulation period one way or the other way." |
Isn't it possible that the reason we can't tell from Scripture when the "rapture" takes place, is because it's not Scriptural?
The way my wife and I read Scripture, the day of Jesus' coming, and the events that precede His arrival, are all extremely clear. Scripture leaves no room for confusion at all, in our reading of it.
| hat lady wrote: | | "Let me ask you... Do you really want to suffer [during the Great Tribulation] because it would be better for you? I am assuming you meant that the rewards in heaven and the character building would be a good thing. I highly doubt anyone wants to suffer for real." |
You are correct: neither my wife nor I would have any desire to suffer through a Great Tribulation (but, then again, we believe the 1,260 year Tribulation has already passed).
However, if we believed in another Great Tribulation, we would not suffer through it because we wanted to earn some sort of reward or because we wanted to build our characters. No, not at all. We would gladly endure the Great Tribulation (as a Spirit-filled, joyful Christian) for the purpose of demonstrating the character of Christ to the world - which is basically the same thing we're doing now.
"ESCAPIST" CHRISTIANITY
Which is why I question the whole "rapture" theory. It seems to me (my wife doesn't have an opinion on this topic, so I speak for myself) that some Christians are insistent on "getting out of here" before the Great Tribulation erupts, so they won't have to witness for Christ when the going gets tough. And that doesn't seem to be the purpose for our being Christians.
If we're just "escapist" Christians (that is, if we become Christians simply to escape the Great Tribulation or to escape the punishment of hell), then we're not really interested in reflecting the character of Christ at all. We're only in it to save our own hides.
So, our concern is that, if we tell Christians they will be "raptured" before the Great Tribulation, then they will be grotesquely unprepared for it when it arrives. They will have based their future security on a lie. And we're not sure their faith would survive under those conditions.
Thank you again for your wonderful kindness. We look forward to hearing your thoughts. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Joebob787 wrote: | Should read up on those Laws, FFT
They do exist |
Nope, they sure don't.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Joebob787 wrote: |
I believe it will occur before the Tribulation/70th week of Daniel. The restrainer of sin must be pulled off the planet, The holy spirit is the restrainer, The holy spirit is in Believers, Thus we go with it. In order for the Man of Lawlessness or Antichrist to be unleashed, The holy spirit must stop restraining sin. |
Many people who teach this also teach that 144,000 Jewish virgin males will become saved during the tribulation and preach the gospel to those who did not believe when the rapture occured and were left behind. They teach that many will come to faith through the ministry of these 144,000 Jewish evengelists.
How will these 144,000 Jewish men, or the people who hear their gospel message, come to faith in Christ if the Holy Spirit has been removed from the planet?
Note that some premillenialist preachers have now reversed their opinion on this, realizing that they and their predecessors had put their foot in their mouth, and are careful to point out that the restrainer of sin is the church, but the Holy Spirit must stay on earth to continue bringing people to faith in Christ.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Officially approved in 451 |
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Joebob787
Rattlesnake
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Nj
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Whats in Believers That is different from Non-believers?
Life can only come from Life.
THE only scienticfic Law for life.
Please tell me how the information in human brains, In DNA and in Cells got there?
Explain how Something can come from Nothing in contradiction with the First law of Thermodynamics.
Please provide Evidence
_________________
Romans 1:16a I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2273
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Who you talking to Joebob??  
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Joebob787 wrote: | Life can only come from Life.
THE only scienticfic Law for life. |
Prove it. 
And there's plenty of promising work showing that it's possible for life to arise from non-living components.
| Joebob787 wrote: | | Please tell me how the information in human brains, In DNA and in Cells got there? |
Define "information."
| Joebob787 wrote: | | Explain how Something can come from Nothing in contradiction with the First law of Thermodynamics. |
The universe's total energy is zero due to the positive and negative energy canceling each other out. Thus it doesn't in any way violate the laws of thermodynamics.
| JOebob787 wrote: | | Please provide Evidence |
You wouldn't understand it.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Please keep the thread on topic. If you want to discuss creation vs evolution, there are threads for that. Let's get back to the topic at hand. Thank you.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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Joebob787
Rattlesnake
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Nj
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Zathrus.
The first question was for you. The rest were for FFT.
Zathrus,
Whats in Believers that Unbelievers do not have?
_________________
Romans 1:16a I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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The Topic!! 
"When will the rapture occur?" 
Remember? 
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Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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It’s interesting to note that pretribulationists believe that Christ will secretly return partway to earth and resurrect the dead first, and then take them and the living back to heaven with him while the seven years of tribulation take place on earth.
Pretribulationists are the same folks who believe that when you die you go immediately to heaven.
Now, why would Christ have folks who are already in heaven precede him to earth, secretly get back in their graves, and then have Christ secretly resurrect them (1Cor. 15:52), and take them back to heaven for seven years? They were already in heaven when they died, according to pretribulationists. What’s the point? |
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Joebob787
Rattlesnake
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 435
Location: Nj
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Our bodies are still on Earth. He coming back to get the Dead peoples Bodies. Everyone only gets 1 Body. Our bodies are Transformed when Jesus returns into Heavenly bodies.
_________________
Romans 1:16a I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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How about only our spirit going back to the One that gave it at our time of death?
Nobby
_________________
Much Love Nobby
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Pete
Lion King
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 1019
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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John 3:13; "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".
1 Corinthians 15:20;"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept".
Colossians 1:18; "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firsborn from the dead; that in all things he might have preeminence". |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Pete,
Didn't Jesus ascend in his new resurrected body? That's why He asked Mary not to touch Him because he hadn't ascended yet. No man would have ascended into heaven yet because no man has been given his new resurrected body.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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