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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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 Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Matthew 3 |
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Who does John the Baptist prepare the way for? Is it not Jesus?
Matthew 3:1-3
In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. |
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| This is a quote from Isaiah 40:3 ( I also like to go on to verse 11 in this passage) and I believe so. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Matthew 3 |
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| YLTYLT wrote: | Who does John the Baptist prepare the way for? Is it not Jesus?
Matthew 3:1-3
In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. |
Yep. He was preparing the way for Jesus. |
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder how JW's respond to this in light of the verse in Isaiah 40:3.
It seems to me very clear that this verse is indicating that Jesus is Jehovah.
Their "JW" version of the bible even has "Jehovah" in it in both verses. |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2131
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus represented Jehovah. Jesus fully explained the Father to us. 
John 7:28 Therefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: “YOU both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and YOU do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.”
He that sent Jesus is Jehovah, and Jesus was a representative from him.
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
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Agape,
TBax |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| YLTYLT wrote: | I wonder how JW's respond to this in light of the verse in Isaiah 40:3.
It seems to me very clear that this verse is indicating that Jesus is Jehovah.
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NIV John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
NIV John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.
What conslusion are we supposed to get from this? That God came to the Earth or that God sent his Son?
It seems to me very clear that these verses are indicating that Jesus is not Jehovah, and that Jehovah sent his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ both as savior of Man and as representative of his Father.
Peace |
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Matthew 3 |
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| Ryck wrote: | | YLTYLT wrote: | Who does John the Baptist prepare the way for? Is it not Jesus?
Matthew 3:1-3
In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. |
Yep. He was preparing the way for Jesus. |
And the Old testament verse that he is quoting is Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
The word "Lord" in this OT verse is translated from the Hebrew word the we transliterate as "JEHOVAH".
According to this verse, Jesus is JEHOVAH.
I am sure other verses can be used out of context to support any position. I do not think I have taken these 2 verses out of context. If I have then please show me how.
Can these 2 verses be reconciled in their context or can you show me where another similar situation occurs where the OT is quoted in the NT and the word "Lord" in the NT is JEHOVAH in OT, and the NT is refering to the Father and not Jesus.
It is my understanding, although I have not recently looked at it, that the JW version of the Bible even uses the word "Jehovah" in Matthew 3:3. |
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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These verses are definitely talking about Jesus.
| Colossians 1 wrote: |
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through [b]his blood[/b], even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. |
Was it not Jehovah that made all things?
Verses 16-17 say that it was by Jesus that all things were created.
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Verse18:
The term “FIRSTBORN” does not mean “first-created.” David was called the “firstborn” (Psa 89:20-27), even though he was the youngest of Jesse’s sons. The term “FIRSTBORN” denotes preeminence and speaks of the fact that Christ alone is the only one who has the right to rule over all of creation. The term “FIRSTBORN” is yet another title, used for Christ, to describe His person |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Matthew 3 |
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| YLTYLT wrote: | | According to this verse, Jesus is JEHOVAH. |
The principle of agency explains the application of the YHWH text in Isaiah to Jesus.
Marinus de Jonge makes a general statement on the principle of agency ( in his discussion on Mark 9:37.)
| Quote: | | ...the fundamentally Jewish idea that the envoy of a person acts as that person and is to be treated as that person himself. |
(Christology in Context: The Earliest Christian Response to Jesus, p. 64)
Jesus is YHWH's envoy (or agent, representative). As such, OT texts that address YHWH may be fulfilled in the NT through the agency of his uniquely begotten son, Jesus. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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The definition of an agent in Judaism.
| Quote: | | Agent (Heb. Shaliah; The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, "a person's agent is regarded as the person himself" (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent. |
(The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, p. 15) |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Craig L. Blomberg discusses the principle of agency found in the book of John.
| Quote: | | Also prominent in John is the picture of Jesus as the one whom God, his heavenly Father, has sent (e.g., 3:17, 28, 34; 4:34; 5:23, 24, 30, etc.). This language draws on the Hebrew concept of the shaliach, a messenger or "sent one" who acts as an agent for his master. Often the agent acts on behalf of the master in ways that begin to blur the distinction between the two (see further, p. 405). |
(Jesus and the Gospels, p. 163) |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Scripture is filled with examples of agency. Jesus himself recognized the principle and employed it.
| Quote: | | "Very truly, I tell you, whoever receives one whom I send receives me; and whoever receives me receives him who sent me." John 13:20 (NRSV) |
The disciples (then and now) are the agents of the Messiah. When the ones he sent are received it is as if the Messiah himself is received.
Messiah is the agent of YHWH. When the one he sent (Messiah Jesus) is received it is as if YHWH himself is received. |
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I understand the idea of an agent, but
In this scenario, the agent cannot also be the creator, or else He would be more than just an agent. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| YLTYLT wrote: | 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
I understand the idea of an agent, but
In this scenario, the agent cannot also be the creator, or else He would be more than just an agent. |
I think TBax has a very strong argument in regard to agency. While he and I agree on the agency issue, we disagree about Jesus being the creator of the heavens and the earth. I'll leave that discussion to the two of you.
If you are interested in my view on the Colossians passage, I've been discussing it in another thread. I would be happy to continue discussion on this scripture in that thread.
Link |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 959
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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On the matter of agency, indeed Jesus (the Son) was sent by the Father, but this does not preclude the Logos being with God, and being God, as John 1:1 reveals.
Infinitude by its 'nature' (if we can even properly use such a term as it relates to infinitude) is unknowable. Yet something of the infinite God became knowable upon God's act of creation. And so it is, the Logos is all that is known/knowable of the infinite Father God.....this is how the Logos is with God and is God.....this is why the Logos is the only one who has seen God the Father.....this is how the Son is one with the Father.
The Logos being made flesh is the manifestation of the Son being sent by the Father.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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