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Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:29 am Post subject:

YLTYLT wrote:

Ryck wrote:

YLTYLT wrote:

I did not intentionally dismiss verse 9, it just has no bearing. If God can call Jesus God, then Jesus can have a God. But that relationship is not the same as our relationship to God.

I disagree with that assesment. Since the same person being called "God in verse 8 is shown to have a God in verse 9.

Furthermore verse 8 and 9 are direct quotes from Pslams 45:6 and 7. I don't see why you'd want to dismiss verse 9 when it is a continuing quotation of Pslams 45: 6 and 7.

I understand that you disagree with my assessment, or else we would not be discussing this. You claim that I dismiss verse 9, And I claim that you dismiss verse 8. Maybe our understanding of God is not complete.

No, I meant what I said: You use Heb 1:8 at the exclusion of Heb 1:9. I say that's wrong.

Quote:

It seems to me that the question I is: did Christ eternally exist? Or was he created? If he was created, then he is not God. If he existed eternally then he is as much God
as the Father is. Right?

No, I said that if you want to claim Jesus is God as per Heb 1:8, then you have to claim Jesus has a God as per Heb 1:9. Therefore, whatever "God" Jesus is in Heb 1:8, he isn't at the top of the God food chain as per Heb 1:9.

Would you please stop dancing around what should be obvious to you by now? Rolling Eyes

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:54 am Post subject:

YLTYLT wrote:

Ryck wrote:

YLTYLT wrote:

John 20:17
Notice that Jesus did not say "Our" Father or "Our" God. He said your Father and My Father and your God and my God. His relationship with the Father is different than ours.

I do understand what you are saying, and if it were not for other verses that contradict your interpretation of the verse, then I would agree with you.

I do realize the the are several places where Jesus calls out to His God. But that does not reconcile the verses that show Christ Jesus as having the attributes of God.

1 John 2:29 says we need to be "born of Him" to be saved. The context of this verse is clearly referring to Christ.

And this is supposed to trump the fact that Jesus has a God?

C'mon! LOL

I think you rather not take John 20:17 for what it is worth. Please do. It is both Scriptural and the verbatim words of Jesus Christ that he has a God. All Bibles in the planet translates this in this way.

I am not trumping the fact that Jesus has a God. I never disagreed with that. All I am saying is that Jesus is God as well. I do not say the Jesus is the Father as most JW's claim that Trinitarians think.

That's like saying, "I agree with you. I never disagreed with you. But disagree with you anyway." LOL

C'mon and stick to a definate position! LOL

I think your position is that you really disagree with what Jesus plainly said.

Jesus' words of "My God" and "Your God" doesn't equal "Our God"? Really? LOL

I don't know the JW teaching. I never raised it. Never accused you of it. Why do you raise it?

Anyway, that's Modalism which I understand that is a Trinitarian heresy most Trinitarians do not agree with. But I don't see how you got the traction to tread John 20:17 with Modalism.

Quote:

Ryck wrote:

YLTYLT wrote:

But 1 John 4:7, 5:1 5:4 each say we need to be "Born of God".

It is only logical to form the conclusion that the Him in 1 John 2:29 must be referring to God.

You are allowing only your interpretation when that's not the only one nor the one indicated.

Consider ...

NIV 1John 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

The Father is both distinct, separate, and distinct from his Son. Yet both are important. The Son is leading us to the Father.

I do not disagree with this

Good. Then your interpretation isn't the only one.

Quote:

Ryck wrote:

So of course we need to be born of God the Father.

Besides, your interpretation of 1John 2:29 isn't applied to the Son but to the Father. This is borne out when you consider the next verse.

NIV 1John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

And if you are wondering who John meant by "God", remember that this is the same John who wrote John 17:3 and 20:17 where in both cases Jesus refers to his Father as "the only true God" and as his "God".

Peace

As I said before I do not disagree that the Father is his (Jesus the man) God.

You are pulling anothe fast one. Smile

You are modifying the Scripture. Jesus is praying to God the Father. Prior to this there is zero to indicate that Jesus is God or else he should be praying to himself. Or rather, he should not be praying to himself if as God he commits the sin of conceit.

You need to rethink yourself here. Smile

Quote:

But look at 1 John 2:28-29 and mark 8:38

Quote:

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mark 8:38 shows a correlation that the person being spoken of in verse 1 John 2:28 is Christ. It seems logical that the pronouns in verse 29 would continue to be about Christ, because the Father is not prophesied to come and appear and Mark 8:38 shows that it is the Son of Man that will be ashamed.

Consequently verse 29 must be referring to Christ. So to be saved one is Born of God. But verse 29 says we need to be born of him, and the context clearly points that the "him" and that phrase is referring to the person that is the Son of Man. Which Jesus called himself the Son of Man.

Two different books written by different men? And you claim the pronouns means ... what??? No other reason that Jesus is God?

Grasping at straws. Especially when you consider that the bulk of New Testament teaching doesn't include a speck of what you are straining to imply here. So whatever you want to make of this, it appears the early Christians didn't "get it" since it was never repeated in New Testament teaching. Smile

Quote:

Therefore Jesus is God, but also the Father is God.

You made some wild claims which don't link on examination. Then you contradict Jesus' own testimony.

NIV John 17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

I really have to go with Scripture here.

YLTYLT
Ferret

Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:30 am Post subject:

Quote:

I don't know the JW teaching. I never raised it. Never accused you of it. Why do you raise it?

I really only intended to address this to Jehovah's Witness. I thought you were a JW because this is the Jehovah's Witness forum and you were supporting their beliefs- or at least what I thought the JW believed about the deity of Jesus.

My mistake, please forgive.....

YLTYLT
Ferret

Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:37 am Post subject:

Ryck, So do you believe that Jesus is the Christ and will appear some time in the future? And if so, does not this verse seem to be talking about Christ?: 1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject:

YLTYLT wrote:

Quote:

I don't know the JW teaching. I never raised it. Never accused you of it. Why do you raise it?

No problem. Smile

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject:

YLTYLT wrote:

Ryck,

So do you believe that Jesus is the Christ and will appear some time in the future?

And if so, does not this verse seem to be talking about Christ?:

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

I'll answer the last question first.

I acknowledge the Son and the Father also, as per verse 23 to 25 of the same chapter.

The first question I'm studying as I answer. I'm reading through to chapter 5.

The verse you cite seems to apply to Jesus on first blush but as 1 John 3:1 points out, those that are "born of him" are children of God the Father rather than the Son. So I tend to lean much more on the Father side than to the Jesus side. I say this because of the additional evidence John gives as John nears to concluding his epistle. He states this point which seems to wrap things up that wrapping into Jesus leads to being wrapped-up with his Father. It is as if Jesus is our Big Brother who wants us to love his Father as a happy family again; loving each other.

NIV 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

Well, that's my take on it. What's yours?

YLTYLT
Ferret

Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:02 am Post subject:

Ryck wrote:

YLTYLT wrote:

I can kind of see where you are coming from in the context if the rest of 1 John. But then verse 2:28 would be saying that it is the Father that will come and appear. How do you reconcile that with other verses that seem to indicate that it is Jesus that will come and appear?

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