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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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 Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| JazZeke wrote: | | “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.” Ps. 2:1-3 |
From Acts 4, here is another example of how God defines ruling in power. The disciples quoted the verse you quoted above in their prayer. Note how God answers their prayer.
| Quote: | 24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. |
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: |
A bit of info from 1 Cor 15:
| Quote: | 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. |
Christ's reigning in power is certainly being discussed here. But it is through the power of resurrection that the last enemy is destroyed. And I kinda think that's the real key to understanding reigning in power - we're talking about power over death, not over man's political governments.
Phil 3:
| Quote: | | 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. |
Resurrection happens through the power of Christ's reigning in power - over death.
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But according to the beginning of verse 24
"...Then cometh the end,...
would indicate that whatever is described in previous verses must precede what will happen in the rest of verse 24.
So looking a 22-23:
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Verse 22 says those that are in Christ shall be made alive.
Verse 23 indicates the order of those things.
- First "Christ the firstfruits" would probably be referring to Christ's own resurrection - which had already happened.
looking back in context:
| Verse 20 wrote: |
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. |
The greek parsing in this verse shows both "Christ" and "firstfruits" to be in the nominative case, showing that are both referring to the subject of the sentence.
- then afterward they that are Christ's (those that belong to Christ and still live) at his second coming when we will be resurrected and given glorified bodies.
This "coming" must be referring to the second coming or else only those that belonged to Christ at his first coming would be included in those that are made alive. Which would not include any of us. So this is not probable.
And there must be a second coming still to come, because there are Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah that have yet to be fufilled. These are all the same prophecies that the Jews today who claim that Jesus is not the Messiah use to try to prove that he is not the Christ, because He did not fulfilled them.
In Luk 17:22-24, Jesus also tells us that if someone claims that he saw the Christ at his second coming and trys to point us toward Him, then we should not follow them. When Christ returns everyone one will know and it will not be necessary to point another towards Him to see Him.
So Zathurus, do you interpret scripture to say that the second coming has already happened or that verse 23 is referring to His first coming? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| YLTYLT wrote: | | This "coming" must be referring to the second coming or else only those that belonged to Christ at his first coming would be included in those that are made alive. Which would not include any of us. So this is not probable. |
I agree that the coming being spoken of in 1 Cor 15:23 is Christ's second coming. However in other places in his epistles, Paul speaks of this same coming and writes to his readers as though he expected them to live to see it. I believe they did.
| YLTYLT wrote: | | And there must be a second coming still to come, because there are Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah that have yet to be fufilled. These are all the same prophecies that the Jews today who claim that Jesus is not the Messiah use to try to prove that he is not the Christ, because He did not fulfilled them. |
I'm guessing those are passages about the Messiah setting up an earthly kingdom and ruling over man's political governments and of predatory animals laying next to grazing species. For shame. Those Jews are making the same errors that we Westerners make when reading their scriptures. And they should know their own culture and the poetic exaggeration used better than that.
In Christ, aren't male and female, Jew and Greek, slave and free one? Weren't there zealots (revolutionaries) and tax collectors among Jesus' disciples?
| YLTYLT wrote: | | In Luk 17:22-24, Jesus also tells us that if someone claims that he saw the Christ at his second coming and trys to point us toward Him, then we should not follow them. When Christ returns everyone one will know and it will not be necessary to point another towards Him to see Him. |
Yes everyone would know. Yet, Jesus said His kingdom would not come with outward show.
| YLTYLT wrote: | | So Zathurus, do you interpret scripture to say that the second coming has already happened or that verse 23 is referring to His first coming? |
The second coming happened, as Jesus said it would, at the end of the age of the law. If you like I can elaborate on that but that's all I have time for now.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Samual
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: Preterists Mistaken |
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The Kingdom of God
In prophetic inference to Jesus Christ in His future Kingship over the earth, the following Scripture should be seriously considered to better understand the Kingdom of God:
Psalm 110:1-2 (Darby Translation)
“Jehovah said unto my Lord, ‘Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies [as] footstool of thy feet.’ Jehovah shall send the sceptre of thy might out of Zion: rule in the midst of thine enemies.”
There are two main points raised within the passage: 1) a time period of waiting until rulership was granted to Jesus Christ, and 2) until God Almighty brought “thine enemies as a footstool of they feet.”
Although there is no specific indication of that length of time Jesus would have to wait for rulership over the earth, there are clues within the Scriptures that can assist us to ascertain an approximation of when that might be. Examine the following verses:
Revelation 19:11,13,14,15,19 (New American Standard Bible)
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.”
“He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.”
“From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.”
“And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.”
“And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.”
Revelation 16:16 (New American Standard Bible)
“And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.”
From the above verses we can see that Jesus, “the Word of God”, leads the heavenly armies against the “kings of the earth” in the final battle where He dispenses the full fury of “the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.” This is God’s war, where He fulfills His words to “put thine enemies [as] footstool of thy feet.” Jesus, although God’s agent in this final battle against those that oppose God’s Kingdom, (Revelation 19:11- 20:1-3) has not yet received rulership over the earth. Only after His enemies have been defeated at Har-Magedon by the wrath of God does Jesus begin His thousand year reign over the earth.
As I understand it, the Preterist view believes the Revelation Account was fulfilled in 70CE. But secular history does not support such a view; neither do the Scriptures, for both sources record the Roman Army as having destroyed Jerusalem at that time thereby ending the Jewish Nation as being representative of God’s Kingdom on earth.
God’s use of a world power to bring destruction against rebellious Israel was nothing new. In Circa 607 BCE, God brought the Babylonian Army against Israel and led captives away into bondage for seventy years.
Jeremiah 25:9 (Darby Translation)
“…behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith Jehovah, and [I will send] to Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and a hissing, and perpetual wastes.”
2 Kings 24:20 (Darby Translation)
“For, because the anger of Jehovah was against Jerusalem and against Judah, until he had cast them out from his presence, Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.”
Ezra 5:12 (Darby Translation)
“But after that our fathers had provoked the God of the heavens to wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, and he destroyed this house, and carried the people away unto Babylon.”
Both Babylonian and Roman Armies were drawn by God Almighty to punish the rebellious House of Israel, in 607 BCE and again in 70CE. But the Scriptures do not suggest that The Word of God or His heavenly armies were involved. However, Jesus spoke of something much bigger than the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon or Roman Armies yet in the future:
Matthew 24:38-39 (Darby Translation)
“For as they were in the days which were before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day on which Noe entered into the ark, and they knew not till the flood came and took all away; thus also shall be the coming of the Son of man.”
Jesus is here making a comparison to a Global event, something that encompasses every nation on this planet. See what Jesus says:
Matthew 24:21-22 (Darby Translation)
“…for then shall there be great tribulation, such as has not been from [the] beginning of [the] world until now, nor ever shall be; and if those days had not been cut short, no flesh had been saved; but on account of the elect those days shall be cut short.”
Considering these words of Jesus, certainly no reasonable mind could think for one moment that the Global Flood of Noah’s Day was less destructive than the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylonian and Roman Armies. And yet, Jesus was pointing ahead of His time to another day in which God Almighty would intervene as He did when He deluged the earth leaving only eight human souls to survive. Two World Wars of the Twentieth Century that claimed millions of lives will be dwarfed by comparison to Har-Magedon. That day is coming.
Then, and only then, when the words of Revelation 19:17-18 have been fulfilled, will Jesus Christ begin a thousand years of restoration as ruler over the earth. (see Revelation 20:4,6) |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3372
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | what part of God's plan did the cross, the resurrection, and the prophetic events that occurred in 70AD leave yet unfulfilled? |
Well, a number of things; for instance the eighth with the ten kings, but here is another;
Rev 21:9 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
At the time the revelation was given to john the seven vials were still full and had not been poured out yet.
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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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JazZeke
Newbie Alert
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Then I missed something. I was simply taking what you wrote literally: |
What I expressed as literal is part of the object lesson of the parable, which you still have not really addressed, but the rest of your response pretty much deals with it so I’ll move on to your further comments.
| Zathrus wrote: | Far too large a topic to address in the time I had, and so I suggested you refer to 1 Cor 15, which I believe does address it. The trouble is I admit I'm not an expert on that, and I also admitted 1 Cor 15 is a difficult chapter to really comprehend.
True. And Christ's kingdom is not of this world (order), otherwise His servants would fight. Isn't that what Jesus told Pilate? How then is it that we are looking for the same thing that the 1st century Jews who wanted Jesus to rule as their king, abolish the Roman occupation and rule over them, and reign as king of a supreme earthly kingdom? |
I see that you are working under a misapprehension, not even the Darby Dispensationalists are looking for “the same thing” that the 1st century Jews wanted in light of fact that even their view upholds that there was no immediacy to the kingdom in the 1st century, which makes the past Roman Empire a moot point. In truth it is Preterism that upholds the “immediacy posture” concerning the Messianic kingdom NOT Dispensationalism, albeit something totally foreign to the OT in light of the truth that the OT NEVER speaks of a Messianic kingdom IN heaven. I simply note that Preterism has the burden to prove its assertion that the Messianic kingdom is in heaven (paradise) and not upon the earth as the OT upholds—not the other way around.
Further, the phrase “not of this world” does not translate into “not upon this earth”, which is exactly what many mistakenly assert. Let me note that the scope of the text should include what I just mentioned; Preterism has the burden to prove its assertion that the Messianic kingdom is in heaven (paradise) and not upon the earth as the OT upholds—not the other way around.
| Zathrus wrote: | Would you mind defining those two terms for those of us who are lay people, not theologians?
Covenant Premillenialism sounds like an oxymoron. I really need to understand what you mean by those terms. |
In “a sense” Covenant Premillennialism commenced with the ante Nicene, who were chiliast and made no distinction between the church and Israel. You need to study the issue and you will find that this form of Premillennialism has been with us since the first advent, albeit it fell from favor by the third century at the same time the church was recognized by the state, which is pregnant with implications, but is still held by a minority today (American Presbyterian church, Church of God, Seventh-day Adventists and George E. Ladd are examples).
“Eschatological intrusion” is an idiom I picked up in Covenant theology essays (if you’re interested I’ll give you sources). Simply put, Yahweh is intruding gradually into Satan’s dominion such as the theocracy of Israel; such examples are eschatological intrusion—the end time authority, power and dominion intruding the future consummation with shadows and types into the hostile dominion of Satan. Outside of these intrusions men were/are subject to common grace; the rule of the heathen kings of the earth. Under the dominion of the theocratic power of Israel, its subjects were outside of the common grace rule of the heathen kings of the earth.
Example, common grace obligated Rahab to submit to the authority of Jericho but her defiance to the powers that be and her subjection to the higher power is an example of “ethical eschatological intrusion”.
Clearly, the New Covenant is another example of intrusion but it can hardly be upheld that it is the eschatological consummation so long as the church is subject to common grace, the authority of the powers that be.
| Zathrus wrote: | Christ's reigning in power is certainly being discussed here. But it is through the power of resurrection that the last enemy is destroyed. And I kinda think that's the real key to understanding reigning in power - we're talking about power over death, not over man's political governments.
Phil 3:21…
Resurrection happens through the power of Christ's reigning in power - over death.
1 Cor 15:55-56
Has the law of the old covenant passed away? If so, what strength does sin still have? If none, then what sting does death have?
When did the law of the old covenant pass away? The answer to that question will be the same as the answer to when sin lost its strength and death lost its sting. |
You’ve pretty much botched your original point that 1 Corinthians 15 presents some sort of proof text concerning a proper hermeneutic for the nature of Christ’s power, authority and dominion when you acknowledged, in another post, that it concerns Christ’s return and then made the return reliant upon extraneous texts.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I agree that the coming being spoken of in 1 Cor 15:23 is Christ's second coming. However in other places in his epistles, Paul speaks of this same coming and writes to his readers as though he expected them to live to see it. I believe they did. |
Then the nature of that power is not strictly within the scope of the text, merely a hint concerning the timing or its investiture. Clearly, Preterism has a problem understanding the scope of certain scriptures. Consequently, we must also move outside the scope of 1 Corinthians 15 to expound upon death as it pertains to anything beyond the righteous as we must move outside the scope to expound upon the nature of that power as it pertains to government. Your assertion that power over death is the sole issue concerning Christ’s reign simply doesn’t address all of the promises concerning his kingdom to begin with, and the sting of death did not commence with the Old Covenant either; it commenced with Adams fall. Your assertions concerning the Old Covenant are a non sequitur as are your assertions concerning power with the aforementioned texts in Corinthians. Only upon Christ rendering the kingdom to the Father is dead finally disposed, cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11-15). Christ provided the means to end death but its complete eradication is still future. Death has been with us since the fall of Adam and 70 AD had nothing to do with its end or even conquering it! The cross conquered death, not the event of 70 AD.
| Zathrus wrote: | | From Acts 4, here is another example of how God defines ruling in power. The disciples quoted the verse you quoted above in their prayer. Note how God answers their prayer…. |
Don’t know what you’re alluding to through Acts 4:24-31. The disciples are confirming that it was Christ that was the object of Yahweh’s “anointed” in Ps. 2, but beyond that scope the text is not proof that Christ is reigning in any power now! Please help me to understand the point you’re attempting to make?
JazZeke |
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