 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Hi Vibrate..
| Quote: | | God cannot contradict himself, so He won't say one thing in my spirit, and another in scripture. Free, natural thought is God's word, so there is no room for contradiction between His word and His word. |
So how do we interpret the message when Jesus is rebuking those who taught the law by saying:
Ye have heard it said....but I say...
There is a clear contradiction between what is written, was is taught, and what is heard.
Exo 21:23 If anyone is injured, the offender must pay a life for a life,
Exo 21:24 an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot,
Exo 21:25 a burn for a burn, a bruise for a bruise, a wound for a wound.
Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to oppose an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn your other cheek to him as well.
OH...
You see that?
The offender must pay..so if he slaps you on one cheek, turn him the other..that way he pays double and you don't bring yourself under the same rule.. 
But what were they being taught?
To take justice into their own hands and applying the rule eye for eye and bringing themselves into the same condemnation..so then they were both equally guilty under the law, as both had become equal offenders.
So then the scripture states justify yourselves, but the spirit says..let God justify you..and yourself be found innocent and not guilty, thereby makng yourself a hypocrite of the law.
The scripture says whoever injures or offends..is guilty..
and that goes both ways.
Even when one feels he is justified by exacting retribution he makes himself guilty by injuring or offending the one who injured or offended..
so then does spirit take precedence over scriptur?
by scripture I mean Old Testament teachings..because the New Testament hadn't been written as scripture yet.
Is it the same spirit which led men to write both the Old and the New...and if yes, then why so many things seem contradictory? Or is it the message of the scriptures how it's taught or spoken?
Putting the pressure on the one teaching the meaning of the words written..
This is how you were taught to think concerning this law..but I'm going to explain it to you the way you should have been taught??
And all words and teachings come from the heart..
so is there a difference of heart from the OT to the NT?
Are the words the same, but now the true intention of it understood?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Virbate wrote: | | Quote: | | By way of explanation, here is an example: Suppose you wake up in the morning and go to your car to go out, and I put a sign over your car, pointing to it, saying: "This is Pastor2022's car." Would you rely on that sign to recognize it as your car? |
I would if someone had parked an identical car to mine next to mine and it was identical in every way except for the key. It would look the same, but would not be the same. That's why I would have to "prove" the car to be mine by the key, not by "sight" or "intuitively" knowing it was mine.
| Quote: | | When preachers and others teach that the doctrine, or scripture, or description, is necessary to recognize the truth, it is a way of implicitly denying that we are able to recognize the truth without that source. |
That is, to me, an oversimplification of what most preachers and teachers do. I, myself, teach and preach that doctrine is important, yea, vital for the Christian and their understanding. As Paul in 2 Tim 3 states, that is what scripture does. Even in the OT the Jews were told to "write the Law upon their hearts" and to meditate upon them night and day. How could they do that without reading them and knowing how important and necessary they were? I'm not negating the work and ministry of the Holy Spirit here, please do not misunderstand.
| Quote: | | In fact the true meaning of God's word is itself an "esoteric experience" and not something that anyone can understand who does not have God's Holy Spirit and Word in them. |
With this, I agree that when one does not have the Holy Spirit one cannot truly comprehend the Word of God and its spiritual applications.
| Quote: | | The problem is only when people try to separate the two, which is what I am fighting against. When they try to "rely on doctrine", it is an act of separating it from the naturally understood and perceived Word of God, which begins in the very heart and soul. Hope you get what I'm saying now, but if not, ask and I'll answer some more. |
My problem with what you had earlier posted was that was what I perceived you were trying to do. Apparently my error. Apparently, what you are talking about (your point if you will) is not TOTAL and ABSOLUTE ONLY reliance upon doctrine. Is that correct?
|
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Doctrine is common sense to someone who experiences the ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is logical, and evident, not something strange.
The distinction I am making is the difference between something you know in yourself, and something you just heard, or read in a book, that sounds like the truth, so you follow it out of fear.
Fear can come disguised as reverence for God, and it often does. There are two churches, and only two - the church of love, and the church of fear. For clarity, the word church means organization. Love is obviously natural, and true; whereas fear is unnatural, and an abomination.
Consider the comparison between the doctrine of works and the doctrine of grace, and you'll see that they both usually teach the same words: "Obey God, obey the commandments, do not sin, love your neighbor, be kind, be honest..." and so on. As far as words, they are identical, but as far as the spirit behind the words, they are completely opposed to each other.
Satan knows the word of God too. The difference is that Satan and his followers know it by way of fear, and God's people know it by way of truth. We love it, and it is natural to us to follow it. We don't have to force ourselves. We're like Peter asking Jesus: "If you don't follow you, where would we go? You're the one who has the word of life."
I have mentioned music many times before. Music is not contained in the notes, or the sequence in which they are played. Music is contained in the heart and soul. Dancing is not a series of steps, it is being moved by the rhythm inside of you. Analogously, the Word of God and true religion are not about saying the right words, and having a list of credentials; God lives inside His people.
I want you to consider that Jesus, the word of God, became flesh as a baby. He wasn't born spouting philosophy, but he lived and knew the truth intuitively. As He grew, he grew in stature, but his nature or character did not change - quantitative but not qualitative growth. Doctrine is about stature, but the truth does not require doctrine. The truth can be known by an infant who cannot even talk.
Consider Adam and Eve in the garden, and Enoch, or Elijah. Consider Abel. How many prophets had the bible that we have today? They didn't have the words, but they had the music. God's heart is the music, and that's where His character is, not in the words. God is love. Doctrine can never become love, and can never establish love. Love is the root of everything, and establishes everything by its power, and it is dependent on nothing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
John 6:68 (GW) Simon Peter answered Jesus, “Lord, to what person could we go? Your words give eternal life.
John 6:68 (KJV) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
The Greek for "words" here is rhema which means spoken words. Peter recognized that they needed to hear the words that Jesus had to speak to them which was later recorded for us and which we need to read and hear as well.
The word "church" is ekkelesia which in Greek means an assembly of called out ones. Is there organization? Of course...we see that in the early church in the Book of Acts. Not all churches teach that you must rely solely on doctrine without the aid of the Holy Spirit which would be wrong just as teaching that relying solely on "experience" without the aid of the divinely inspired scriptures would be wrong.
In the NT Greek, the word "fear" is primarily phobos
or its variants from which we get the word phobia. Depending upon context gives its meaning to us in English. For example, in Philippians 2:12 (GW) My dear friends, you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I'm absent. In the same way continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Fear here doesn't mean slavish fear but as Vincent says, "wholesome, serious caution." God does not want us to "fear" Him(as Christians) with the kind of fear that is phobic or slavish, but there is a reverential fear that we are to have as His children and subjects of His kingdom. God is not our "buddy" or "pal." He is God, the Creator, the One and Only God and deserves recognition and reverence and worship as such.
The Scripture says God is love, that is true. But it also says He is a God of wrath, a jealous God, a gracious God, a merciful God, an exacting God, etc. We humans do God a disservice in trying to "confine" God to one thing we want Him to be. He is beyond anything we can imagine or think as we are finite and quite incapable of comprehending or understanding an infinite God no matter how much we think we understand or know.
It is quite presumptive of me or anyone else to say "I've got all the answers to God and what He is like." BTW, I'm not saying that you have said that. I'm just making a point.
I have enjoyed our dialogue. God bless.
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Of course. Thanks too.
We'll find that some will be pleased and blessed, while others will be offended when we say simply that God is the only truth.
God's word, through His teachers, is a fire that destroys every false image that is given worship - every philosophy, ideology, or thought. Only the truth shall stand, so it is the nature of those who are offended that they should be offended.
Meanwhile iron shall continue to sharpen iron, so those who come in the name of God shall be blessed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vibrate wrote: | | Consider first of all the example of a baby, who loves his mother, but does not express or understand it in words. But through body language, the attention the baby pays to his mother, or by crying, laughing, and other forms of communication, the baby demonstrates love. So we see from this example that there are other forms of language than just words. The results are that the mother and others feel the love of the baby, and praise God. Everyone loves babies; they bring life to a home, and they remind us of purity, and innocence, and because of this they give us hope - all without words. |
This is completely assumptive. We cannot know that a baby loves. Psychologically and physically there is substantial research that shows the baby's physical expression is instinctive survival affectations. Laughing, crying, cuddling, etc. are all physical manifestations of survival techniques and responses to stimuli.
| Quote: | | So my point is that words do not create the love that they express, but instead love expresses itself through words. So my point has been all about the order. |
This is the problem isn't it? You've based your entire circuitous argument on the assumption that anyone thinks that words create the love. More importantly, this assumptive conclusion really doesn't follow from the last 3-4 pages of your posts.
| Quote: | | I have been saying simply that we need to understand that truth enables true words, and not the other way around. True words are just tools. By speaking true words we can teach others to use true words, but we cannot make them see the truth. Only God can do that. |
I disagree that you have been saying this. I will grant that this is indeed what you may have meant, but it certainly wasn't what you have been saying. Additionally, I don't believe anyone has disagreed that we must understand the truth that enables true words, or has stated otherwise, so I fail to understand the need for the assertion.
| Quote: |
God cannot contradict himself, so He won't say one thing in my spirit, and another in scripture. Free, natural thought is God's word, so there is no room for contradiction between His word and His word. |
This is the crux of the problem. His written Word, and right doctrine is what allows us to understand if what we feel, or believe is truly from God or not.
Many people come here and express what they feel 'God has placed on their heart' and often times those feelings and beliefs are in contravention to His written Word. If we were to rely on what people feel is from God then we would be in horrible shape.
The reason for this is simply that the adversary is a deceiver and manipulator. He can, and does, whisper thoughts to us which make can make us feel those thoughts are divinely inspired - all the while the poor schmuck who puts his faith and hope in those deceptions walks around saying "God led me to know this...."
Man is naturally unable to see, hear, or understand God and His ways so there is no instinctive or intrinsic ability to hear His truth outside of His written Word.
| Quote: | | Fear can come disguised as reverence for God, and it often does. There are two churches, and only two - the church of love, and the church of fear. For clarity, the word church means organization. Love is obviously natural, and true; whereas fear is unnatural, and an abomination. |
There is so much wrong in this, but I think Pastor2002 addressed it sufficiently for now...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It should be obvious to anyone by now that we're talking on different levels here.
I think enough has been said on this topic. It is clear to me how your thinking goes, and that you don't have a clue what I'm getting at.
You're stuck in a certain rut, which makes it impossible for you to contemplate what I'm talking about. It is natural for you to try quibbling over the words I have used. You're actually now saying that I didn't say what I said, but I may have been trying to say that!
We're only going to go round in circles unless you are able to step off the dictionary for a little second and consider metaphors and other figures of speech. You have to be able to listen to the person, and not let interpretations come between one soul and the other. However your tradition of focusing on words keeps us apart, in the same way as it keeps you from recognizing the true interpretation of the bible.
It's no way to live, so tight, so paranoid! You've got to loosen up and trust yourself, your true nature. Be free! Know and speak the truth, and it will free you; don't wait until the words match some system you're trying to build in your mind.
Babel - Babylon, it's all about building systems to reach God, but you cannot find Him that way. The kingdom of God is at hand, not far away so you have to journey up in the sky, or under the ground to find Him!
He who has ears to hear... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So in other words, you don't know what you are talking about, you titter on the edge of promoting false doctrine, and you are unable to express yourself in a meaningful and cogent manner, thus you wish to leave the discussion...
Figures. 
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't wish to leave the discussion. I wish we could continue and go somewhere, but I discern that you are stuck in a rut, because of your responses. You haven't been able to appreciate the heart of what I've been getting at, but you quibble over words.
Meanwhile, two or three other people have been able to understand and appreciate what I've been saying, after reading the same words!
You said: | Quote: | | You don't know what you are talking about, you titter on the edge of promoting false doctrine, and you are unable to express yourself in a meaningful and cogent manner, thus you wish to leave the discussion... |
If it's not meaningful and cogent, how do others understand but not you? What is this phrase "titter on the edge of promoting false doctrine"? Surely it is either true or false! So again I say, if I am lying, then show using God's law of nature how I have been lying. Of course it is impossible to do so, since all I have been saying is that God's law of nature is the only law of nature.
Why do you find it strange when I say this? It is because you have formulated a "different" conception, which does not acknowledge the supremacy of God's law of nature. Meanwhile this very law sustains your existence!
The fact is that the supremacy of God's law of nature is the very foundation of all truth, and it is self-evident. If you are looking for me to motivate its supremacy by pointing to some higher source as evidence, then clearly this cannot happen, since it is the ultimate source.
Surely this has been articulated clearly, for anyone who knows about the law of life, aka God's law of nature?! But for one who does not, no amount of talking or explaining will suffice, because you're already on a different boat. Who doesn't have ears to hear... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Pastor2022, I would like to take you up on this, if you're still around and willing. You said: | Quote: | | Not all churches teach that you must rely solely on doctrine without the aid of the Holy Spirit which would be wrong just as teaching that relying solely on "experience" without the aid of the divinely inspired scriptures would be wrong. |
You have of course agreed here with my central premise, which is that it is wrong to rely solely on doctrine without the aid of the Holy Spirit. But I believe that churches do by and large teach doctrine first, and this can be proven.
Consider the perspective of someone such as myself, who teaches "radical" natural inspiration, from the inside out, and never from the outside in. For me, nature is a guide to let us know the difference between false and true doctrine, since true doctrine frees us naturally, whereas false doctrine seeks to bind us, as conflicts with the free, natural understanding.
Consider the tone that a teacher who promotes this radical tradition should use in teaching, and consider the culture of the church that is build on this principle. It is the tradition of a University atmosphere, where we are interested in objective study and analysis, and there is no hint of competition, condescension, or judgment wherever there is a lack of understanding.
Okay. So visualize this in your mind, and let me use a few examples by way of comparison. Have you heard Paster Hagee's tone when he preaches? Doesn't he sound strangely like Oz? So why does he do it? What about Rod Parsley? What about Joyce Meyer, why does she sound so angry and harsh?
I am not being critical of these people, and I do not doubt the truth of their testimonies, but the fact that they so unapologetically embrace a culture of fear (not fully, but on so many obvious levels) and the fact no-one says anything speaks volumes.
Remember that Protestantism came from out of the Catholic Church, where the hierarchical mystery approach was very strong. They have maintained in my view most of the mystery, replacing the Pope with the Bible. So someone who has gone to seminary and has a doctorate is revered, and knowledge of the bible is supreme in the church's culture. I'm not saying this is a complete statement about all churches, or every element of the church; remember I am not criticizing or judging. But I am simply saying that this is a big, huge problem!
What we need is a revolution of the people, to establish a more "democratic, if you will" culture around the study of God's word. We need to acknowledge that God's word is not a measurable commodity, so degrees and titles are not worth anything. God has already created a natural system, which is how it's supposed to work. Listen to the people whom you trust, and admire, and create an atmosphere more like a round table, without the pulpit/congregation limitation. Maybe we can pass a mic around the room like Oprah. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Vibrate wrote: | | but I discern that you are stuck in a rut, because of your responses. |
Because I seek further clarification of what you are posting I am stuck in a rut? How does that follow, logically?
| Quote: | | You haven't been able to appreciate the heart of what I've been getting at, but you quibble over words. |
This simply isn't the case. I'm not 'quibbling' over words, I'm asking for you to expound on your meaning.
| Quote: | | Surely it is either true or false! So again I say, if I am lying, then show using God's law of nature how I have been lying. |
Surely what is true or false? You've not said anything of substance to be claimed as true or false. Neither have I even broached the idea of you lying so I fail to understand why you ask this.
| Quote: | | since all I have been saying is that God's law of nature is the only law of nature. |
This is what you need to explain further. What do you mean by "God's law of nature"?
| Quote: | | It is because you have formulated a "different" conception, which does not acknowledge the supremacy of God's law of nature. |
This makes no sense either. How can you assert that I have formulated a different conception of something that you have failed to sufficiently explain?
| Quote: | | The fact is that the supremacy of God's law of nature is the very foundation of all truth, and it is self-evident. If you are looking for me to motivate its supremacy by pointing to some higher source as evidence, then clearly this cannot happen, since it is the ultimate source. |
This argument, once again is circuitous. You make claims to God's law of nature, yet you cannot define the meaning of the phrase, or offer anything, logically, philosophically, theologically, or scripturally, to support or define your claims - because your claims are beyond such support...
| Quote: | | Surely this has been articulated clearly, for anyone who knows about the law of life, aka God's law of nature?! But for one who does not, no amount of talking or explaining will suffice, because you're already on a different boat. Who doesn't have ears to hear... |
This is a copout. If your assertions have truth, then they can be articulated.
For the record, I've not seen anyone in this thread who 'understands' what you are asserting. If they have, then they are welcome to explain it as well...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sure, I'll repeat. First of all, by way of preface, let me state clearly that I am talking about a principle that I have not learned in a book, nor have I grown up in an environment where it is explicitly spoken of. For this reason I need to improvise when it comes to an explanation. You need to read the following not focusing on the words in their historical usage, but trying to see past that to what the person writing can be getting at. This will take a cooperative effort between the two of us in order to succeed. So loosen up a little. Here goes:
The statement is that God's word is a natural thing. For a reference, here some definitions from dictionary.com of the word "nature":
- the universe, with all its phenomena.
- the sum total of the forces at work throughout the universe.
- the original, natural, uncivilized condition of humankind.
- a primitive, wild condition; an uncultivated state.
So I am referring to a principle of something that is unforced, not contrived, but which is intuitive, spontaneous, and innate. My claim is that God's word is totally natural, and in no way, to any extent, ever at any time is it anything other than natural.
By extension, I am claiming that any teaching claiming to come from God must pass the "nature test". If it is not natural, it is not from God. If it is natural, then it is from God.
So you have a definition, and a complete statement of my claims, above. Now, the following paragraph describes the philosophical, and theological perspective:
God is the creator who made and sustains all creation. Therefore creation is an extension of Himself, and contains His characteristics. Understanding truth belongs to the principle of realizing that God is the character of everything. Lies belong to the principle of imagining that anything has a different character than God's. As far as understanding the way of life for human beings, the principle of truth belongs to the process of a human being realizing God's character in himself, and in the universe. This is what Jesus' life and ministry is about.
As far as biblically, I have already quoted Romans where Paul says that God's invisible nature is evident in the visible world. I also referenced the scripture that we are made in God's image and likeness. You can consider that we have the power to become the children of God, through the ministry of Christ, or that believers are the glory of God in Christ. I have also quoted Jeremiah 31, and other sources. I have cited many many scriptures in this forum, so please read through again.
Thanks again for your time. Clearly you are being very patient, even though you zealously feel opposed to what you believe me to be promoting. So I applaud this. However, I do believe that you have called me a liar, though not in so many words. Are you sure this isn't how you have felt?[/u] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Virbate wrote: | | Quote: | | But I believe that churches do by and large teach doctrine first, and this can be proven. |
Yet, your "proof" is a subjective statement of citing some TV preachers and their supposed "tone" of fear and therefore indicting all preachers/teachers in one fell swoop! This may be from your own experience, but that is hardly conclusive or exhaustive.
| Quote: | | Consider the perspective of someone such as myself, who teaches "radical" natural inspiration, from the inside out, and never from the outside in. For me, nature is a guide to let us know the difference between false and true doctrine, since true doctrine frees us naturally, whereas false doctrine seeks to bind us, as conflicts with the free, natural understanding. |
Excuse me, but based upon your "words" here, you're being contradictory. On the one hand you're saying that inspiration comes from the inside out, yet at the same time (and in your post to RevJP later) you're saying that nature is an extension of God and nature is a guide and that is on the "outside." Sounds to me like you're saying its both.
| Quote: | | So someone who has gone to seminary and has a doctorate is revered, and knowledge of the bible is supreme in the church's culture. I'm not saying this is a complete statement about all churches, or every element of the church; remember I am not criticizing or judging. But I am simply saying that this is a big, huge problem! |
Ok, but you are criticizing and judging that in a way. I happen to have done all that. NO ONE in our church reveres me. Do I know more about the Scriptues than most of my congregation? Sure. I've studied Hebrew and Greek. I've taken courses in hermeneutics, homeletics, done exegesis on books of the scriptures. I daresay I spend more time studying than most of my fellow congregants because I am a full-time pastor. Do I rely on the Holy Spirit for enlightment and discernment? Of course. Do I go outside and wonder and be in awe of nature and God's creation? Of course. Do I get some special insight into Revelation 5:13 from a tree? No. Can I get some insight into the wonder of Genesis account of creation from nature? Absolutely.
| Quote: | | What we need is a revolution of the people, to establish a more "democratic, if you will" culture around the study of God's word. We need to acknowledge that God's word is not a measurable commodity, so degrees and titles are not worth anything. God has already created a natural system, which is how it's supposed to work. Listen to the people whom you trust, and admire, and create an atmosphere more like a round table, without the pulpit/congregation limitation. Maybe we can pass a mic around the room like Oprah. |
There is already a more "democratic" culture of the study of God's word: Bible Study, Cell Groups, Sunday School, Home Bible Studies, etc.
Degrees are not worth anything?? Just ask my wife and children who lived in seminary housing for four years and put up with little income and the hours I was studying and working another job and pastoring at the same time. Ask me about the hours of learning Hebrew, Greek, taking classes, writing papers, etc. so I could be better prepared to teach and preach to people. The "title" means nothing to me, the "education" and the ability to "learn" is what is important. To be honest, I resent the implication that my degrees are worthless. Generally they're only worthless to those who don't have them.
As far as "round table discussion," I do those on a regular basis and my people love them, as do I. More and more churches are going to it.
|
_________________
Faith is the confident obedience to the Word of God in spite of circumstances or consequences. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vibrate wrote: | | So you have a definition, and a complete statement of my claims, above. |
Finally.
To be completely candid, if you had posted that 2-3 pages ago we would've not had an issue. You finally posted a cogent statement of what you were talking about.
| Quote: | | Clearly you are being very patient, even though you zealously feel opposed to what you believe me to be promoting. |
You are completely wrong. I would suggest you stop assuming the motivations of others (me) and actually try to discuss what is posted. To this point I've had very little to oppose or agree with as you have been ambiguous (at best) on what your meaning was.
| Quote: | | However, I do believe that you have called me a liar, though not in so many words. Are you sure this isn't how you have felt? |
I'm not sure I understand why you think this or where you derive your understanding of 'liar' from. I've not stated, or implied, that you have lied about anything. If I have, or if you feel I have, then please provide citation. Otherwise; get real.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Pastor2022. Please don't be offended by my words; if we are just studying things together then there is no need for any of that. You said:
| Quote: | | As far as "round table discussion," I do those on a regular basis and my people love them, as do I. More and more churches are going to it. |
So the churches are moving toward this principle, and away from what then? Furthermore, if this example is one example of progress in the church, then what are they moving toward? Clearly progress is toward nature, and away from unnatural teachings that have crept in.
You said:
| Quote: | | Excuse me, but based upon your "words" here, you're being contradictory. On the one hand you're saying that inspiration comes from the inside out, yet at the same time (and in your post to RevJP later) you're saying that nature is an extension of God and nature is a guide and that is on the "outside." |
Inspiration takes place according to nature; it's a natural phenomenon of human beings to be inspired, and it is not done by force or from the outside. Guidance is also done from the inside, and is natural. Where is the contradiction? No guide can be outside. You can see phenomena outside of your body, and by seeing and understanding what they represent, the guidance takes place inside your mind. This is all natural.
In all of this, I feel that you're overlooking my central argument, and focusing on the peripherals. My argument has been that God's word cannot be measured. That's it! If there is any element of measuring in anyone's thinking, it is from the devil. Tell me, can you state absolutely that there is not even a shred of measuring in the culture of your church?
If you're honest you will admit that there is. And if there is, then this church is not pure, as God's word is. There is a pure, perfect church, which your church is not. This pure church has a pure and perfect doctrine, which is nature, the word of God.
Finally, let me respond to this statement:
| Quote: | | Your "proof" is a subjective statement of citing some TV preachers and their supposed "tone" of fear and therefore indicting all preachers/teachers in one fell swoop! This may be from your own experience, but that is hardly conclusive or exhaustive. |
This is very interesting, and it makes me ask "what is the nature of God's perspective to truth, is it objective or is it subjective?" Clearly it is both at once! Yet to those who cannot understand some point, it may seem to be just an opinion, only subjective. My statement is both, and it is a proof, but only to someone who examines in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no proof for anything, and everything is "just an opinion".
We were raised in the mob culture of Babylon, which calls a proof a proof only when the mob agrees. But there are proofs that are more esoteric. Can we talk on that level? Well, God talks on that level, and so do I when I can. Despite what the world teaches, I am not a citizen of the world, nor under the mob authority of Babylon, which insists on mob type proofs. And if you want to know what the mob is, read in the bible when they shouted, "Crucify him!". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
