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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | If this scenario-Then there would be peace.  |
I don't believe that for a minute. That is incredibly naive.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | But you yourself state that slavery could be considered to be like employment. Well so could military service! So the Witnesses have no grounds for condemning employment in that field. |
Prostitution could be considerded as employment as well.
I believe you are verifing my point that you will see only what you want to see. 
If history reveal that early Christians quit the military once becoming Christians, would you then believe?
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Actually the historians directly address this. I have posted these a number of times in the JW forum here. You can find them if you search.  |
I just got through looking at a number of threads in this forum and didn't see anywhere that you addressed this. At least when I told you I'd discussed something in a previous thread, I pointed you to the specific thread so you could read it.
| TBax wrote: | I believe I know what your reaction will be if you see the proof though.  Am I wrong? If history reveal that early Christians quit the military once becoming Christians, would you then believe? |
Isn't that something how we can predict each other's responses so well? Though I admit I did have slight hope that when I showed the context of Jesus statement "He that is not for me is against Me" that you would acknowlege His real meaning as the context revealed it.
If Christians in the early church did leave the military (assuming that was even permitted without being killed) I would be interested in knowing about it, and about why.
The Bible even tells us a Roman soldier confessed that Jesus is the Son of God. It does not tell us that he tried to leave the Roman army.
The Bible also tells us that John the Baptist told the soldiers who heard him preach and asked what God would have them do that they should not oppress and brutalize civilians. It does not tell us that John told them they should desert the army.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Prostitution could be considerded as employment as well.
I believe you are verifing my point that you will see only what you want to see. |
If I am only seeing what I want to see, then I am not the only one here. It's all in print for everyone else to read.
You are still not comparing like with like. The only thing prostitution has in common with legitimate employment is it is offering a service for a payment. It is an obvious and frankly a ridiculous attempt to twist the argument to suit your Witness doctrine to draw a parallel between prostitution and military service as employment.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Simply put, I only want to know 1 thing from you.
If history reveals that early Christians didn't join or quit the military once becoming Christians, would you then believe? Or would you at least respect my position and stop fighting against it?
I am not interested in supplying information to one who twists many things in a warped and inept attempt to alter context. Like you did with your mistake. 
Show me if you can be reasonable. So far, I haven't seen it.
1 Thing I require:
If history reveals that early Christians didn't join or quit the military once becoming Christians, would you then believe? Or would you at least respect my position and stop fighting against it?
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." That must be true because it rhymes.  All kidding aside, it is true. People who want to believe something will believe that "something" regardless of the facts. It is easy to rationalize away the facts. Men have become pretty ingenius in this realm. |
I don't think you are understanding that saying correctly. I think it refers to coercing someone into acknowleging what another wants him to. Similar to how Witness adherents are required to believe everything printed in their WTBS literature, regardless whether it really makes sense or not.
Or for instance if you insisted black is white, and got me through threatening, torture, whatever, to acknowlege that black is white, deep down my opinion has not changed. Black is black, not white. My saying something false that I was coerced to say does not mean I believe it.
| TBax wrote: | Regarding 1 Cor 7:
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If a person was a temple prostitute, then became a Christian, could they remain a temple prostitute?
If a person practiced magic and then became a Christian, could they continue practicing magic? I believe your conclusion is in error. Slavery could be considered to be like employment. Yet if that "slavery" involved unclean or spiritually harmful practices a Christian couldn't continue with a clean conscience. |
Are you arguing we should look at historical and cultural context here? Wasn't it you who insisted "The context doesn't take the meaning away!" referring to the meaning you and the Witnesses have assigned despite the obvious context in regard to the Lord's statement "He who is not for me is against Me"? See page 2.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451
Last edited by Zathrus on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Simply put, I only want to know 1 thing from you.
If history reveals that early Christians didn't join or quit the military once becoming Christians, would you then believe? Or would you at least respect my position and stop fighting against it?
--
EDIT JUNE 6
| Zathrus wrote: | | Wasn't it you who insisted "The context doesn't take the meaning away!" referring to the meaning you and the Witnesses have assigned despite the obvious context in regard to the Lord's statement "He who is not for me is against Me"? See page 2. |
You got that wrong too.  The context supports my understanding. "The context doesn't change the meaning" isn't an attempt to discount context, but to say your attempt to alter context was feeble and didn't work.
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I am not interested in supplying information to one who twists many things in a warped and inept attempt to alter context. Like you did with your mistake.
Show me if you can be reasonable. So far, I haven't seen it.
1 Thing I require:
If history reveals that early Christians didn't join or quit the military once becoming Christians, would you then believe? Or would you at least respect my position and stop fighting against it?
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Is there an echo in here again? 
TBax, I said I went looking in other thread in this forum for where you gave an answer to my question. That should answer your question. What part of that did you not understand?
I will want to know all the pertinent information and make a judgement based on it. That is how intelligent people form beliefs. If your question is will I carte blanche believe all the obviously unscriptural Witness doctrines just because you can dig up an example of at least one early Christian who left the military, well then the answer is no. I am neither gullible nor insecure enough to really think the way your Witnesses are expected to think.
As for respecting your position, I respect every man's personal convictions. And I would never consider fighting against them. If it is your personal conviction not to serve in the military, I respect that.
It is the imposing of beliefs on people through threats and intimidation, expecting them not to think for themselves or question, that I do not respect and will always fight against. This type of indoctrination, which numerous threads on this forum, most notably the "Present truth" thread, reveal that the Witnesses engage in, actually disrespects the personal convictions of individuals, seeking to break them down and replace their personal convictions and principles with the doctrines and commandments imposed by the organization. I find that reprehensible and I will fight it.
Open your heart to the gospel and be free to live by the convictions that God has put in your heart. That would be the 1 thing I want for you, brother.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough.
| The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333 wrote: | | “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” |
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Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
Big Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 959
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I just read this entire thread.
It's plainly evident who are the children of God, and who is the deceiver.....or at the very least....it's clear who is a mouthpiece of the deceiver.
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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holly102869
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 278
Location: Central, Florida USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
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The children of God are the ones who do everything in love. It doesn't matter what your faith is. Even going to war in the name of love is not wrong. Look at Moses,
David and almost every figure in the bible. They fought wars for their God's sake for their people. Even Jesus was fighting a war. He just fought with his heart and soul not his fist. He tried to change the way people thought so he also fought with his words. He won his war by loving and following God's wisdom. People we should all fight for what we believe in. Many things are different but not that Jesus died for our sins. We all believe in one true God. That is the message that should be spoken not all the things that pull away from your salvation. The arguing is a tool satan is using to break down the barriers of men. To make you question your beliefs. Stop letting him use you like this.
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Bless you,
Holly
Ask,Seek,Knock
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Holly: | Quote: | | The arguing is a tool satan is using to break down the barriers of men. To make you question your beliefs. Stop letting him use you like this. |
That's why I stopped posting in this thread. He's not going to change my conviction about this. I believe that war should be avoided WHEN POSSIBLE but I also believe there are times we cannot avoid war. Sometimes you have to stand up for and fight for what you believe in.
Luv
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Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | He's not going to change my conviction about this. |
That is fine, but what was the point of posting your questions?
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
If your mind is made up what was your purpose here?
To teach me your thoughts? No thanks.
| The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333 wrote: wrote: | | “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” |
If the history of the early Christians means nothing to you, certainly none of my words will either.
Oh, and I found something else you should see. From an article entitled "The Role of Religion in World Affairs" off the net.
| Quote: | In 1980, Delmar Smyth, professor of administration at Toronto’s York University, told the Ethics Commission of the Baptist World Congress held in Toronto, Canada: "We in the Baptist tradition are addicted to war." He then pointed out that Jesus’ early disciples "believed he taught and practised non-violence . . . Early Christian writers condemned war. They branded killing in war as murder."
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In 1983, when the WCC (World Council of Churches) assembled in Vancouver, Canada, Philip Potter, its general secretary, told them to "stay political." Most religions have done this, making themselves a part of the world. |
But, of coarse, that doesn't mean anything to you. Doesn't change your conviction.
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Holly,
your message is conflicting.
| Holly wrote: | He (Jesus) tried to change the way people thought so he also fought with his words.
...
The arguing is a tool satan is using to break down the barriers of men. |
How do you fight with words without being perceived as arguing in a conversation?
I try to do what Jesus did. If people don't listen, that is up to them. Yet if they put forth faulty info or rationalizations, I am going to attempt to correct them. If they choose to ignor, there is nothing I can do. I am not going to pretend they are right though. Sometimes the "barriers of men" keep them from learning the truth and need to be broken down. What is your point? That these forums should be shut down?
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Agape,
TBax |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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TBax: | Quote: | That is fine, but what was the point of posting your questions?
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
If your mind is made up what was your purpose here?
To teach me your thoughts? No thanks. |
The point in posting the question, TBax, is two-fold:
1) To see if anyone thought there was an option other than fighting back after 3,000+ U.S. citizens were slaughtered.
2) To try an gain some insight as to why JW's don't back the very people upon whose backs they ride.
It's like living in someone's house, letting them do all the work and pay all the bills while you sit back and enjoy living there.
You most certainly are a part of this world and a part of this country in so many regards. You are in denial when you say you aren't.
Here's another question for you: If gunmen entered the Kingdom Hall while your brothers and sisters were in a meeting and started shooting or taking people hostage, what would you do? Are you still a conscientious objector? What if they waited for the meeting to adjourn and attacked in the parking lot? Would that make a difference?
I know that there are people who object to war. I wish there were no wars. However, if you are attacked and do nothing, isn't your inaction the same as permission?
I think the least you can do even if you object on the basis of conscience is support our troops who are fighting for your freedoms, your rights and your life.
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
Prov 14:12 There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward.
I realized, other then the Israelites being told to fight in the OT, you haven't provided a single reference in scripture to support your view. Your only references to scripture are that Jesus will judge you, and your rationalizations so that Jesus' words would not apply to you. If that is how you roll, fine. Why would you think your human reasoning should convince others? From a human standpoint, what you say would make sense, without eyes of faith.
1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish?
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3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God;
Do your arguments apply to the first century Christians as well?
| luvnlife wrote: | | It's like living in someone's house, letting them do all the work and pay all the bills while you sit back and enjoy living there. |
Like Jesus did?
The house is God's. The people God allowed to be in charge are failing misrably, and are influenced by God's enemy, and are going to be fired. You can side with them if you want. Totally your choice. With our decisions come consequences though. I will side with God and listen to His Son, just like the first century Christians did. I no longer expect you to understand. Yet I hope you will 
John 15:19 If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.
2 Thess 3:1 Finally, brothers, carry on prayer for us, that the word of Jehovah may keep moving speedily and being glorified just as it is in fact with YOU; 2 and that we may be delivered from harmful and wicked men, for faith is not a possession of all people.
| Quote: | | In his book An Historian’s Approach to Religion, Arnold Toynbee cites the case of Maximilianus, a third-century martyr who, when threatened with death by the Roman court for refusing recruitment into the military, said: “I won’t serve. You may behead me, but I won’t serve the powers of This World; I will serve my God.” |
Look at that. A person of faith!
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Agape,
TBax |
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