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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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TBax.
You've picqued my curiosity. (Thank you!) What translation of the Bible did English speaking people holding the view that modern day JW's hold use prior to the publication of the NWT? |
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Paul2
Big Goldfish
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: |
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james,
| I wrote: | | ..."AND THE WORD WAS GOD"...What is your understanding of these words? |
| You wrote: | | You cannot take a persons Word and make a separate person for they are one in the same, the Word is an expression of that person. |
In relation to John 1:1: "AND THE WORD WAS GOD", do you mean you believe these words declare that the WORD was the same person as the Father?
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Mattathias,
Regarding storing treasures in heaven:
| Mattathias wrote: | | It was stored up for me in the plan of God. He did the storing, not me. |
That isn't how the Bible puts it. 
Matt 6:19 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
The fact is, you do not HAVE something before you recieve it. Just like you do not have life before you exist.
Mattathias, if you want to keep believing what you have said, that is up to you. I don't think it is the least bit logical though. 
Also the fact is Jesus is called the "Word", even after his resurrection. I believe Jesus carries this name because he was instramental in delivering God's messages to humans. Both before he was born on earth, during his time on earth, and after. Yes, the Word became flesh, but what was he before? A spirit? A thought or a plan? We know God is a spirit. Isn't it logical to believe his Firstborn of all creation is a spirit as well, as the angels were created before humans. The Bible shows us that previous to Jesus becoming human, he was in God's form.
Phil 2:5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.
We know man was made in God's image, meaning, unlike the animals, we have intelligence and ability to make thing. We understand the qualities God has and we can posses love, wisdom, justice, and power. Jesus, of coarse, was made in God's image as well, yet Jesus was also in God's form. A powerful spirit creature that didn't seek to push ahead, but humbled himself and became flesh.
Phil 2:7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.
John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father;
I don't believe a literal "plan" has the ability to reason or decide if he will be humble or haughty.
| Mattathias wrote: | | What translation of the Bible did English speaking people holding the view that modern day JW's hold use prior to the publication of the NWT? |
We used different Bibles. The Watchtower society did copy the KJV for possible use and distribution in the past.  |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | The fact is, you do not HAVE something before you recieve it. |
I had, and still have, what is promised in prospect. Does the phrase, "It's as good as done," mean anything to you? 
| Quote: | I don't think it is the least bit logical though.
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Then you shouldn't believe it. 
| Quote: | | Both before he was born on earth... |
See your comment above on not having life before you exist.
| Quote: | | Yes, the Word became flesh, but what was he before? A spirit? A thought or a plan? |
He existed in the plan of God. | Quote: | | We know God is a spirit. |
God is spirit, not a spirit. | Quote: | | Isn't it logical to believe his Firstborn of all creation is a spirit as well, as the angels were created before humans. |
Scripture presents Jesus as a uniquely begotten human being, not a pre-existing angel.
| Quote: | | The Bible shows us that previous to Jesus becoming human, he was in God's form. |
I'll address Phil 2:5 in another thread. (We sure have strayed far away from my original post!) 
| Quote: | | I don't believe a literal "plan" has the ability to reason or decide if he will be humble or haughty. |
Neither do I. It was God who reasoned, not the plan.
| Quote: | | We used different Bibles. The Watchtower society did copy the KJV for possible use and distribution in the past. |
Thanks. And what Bible did your folks use prior to 1611?
Last edited by Mattathias on Tue May 27, 2008 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Oops! Forgot to address this one. 
| Quote: | | Matt 6:19 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. |
I don't think this alters my point. Believers will be rewarded according to their works. I believe that we have the ability to effect our positions of responsibility in the kingdom of God by "storing up our treasure in heaven." That certainly doesn't nullify that God promised glory to believers long before they were even born. |
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james
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Paul2,
In according with the scriptures (which plainly say this)I gave near the end of my page 1 post, Yes. |
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ragman13
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Just want to get emails of updates to this thread. Good day. |
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Paul2
Big Goldfish
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:47 am Post subject: |
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james,
| You wrote: | | This also is spoke of in Heb 1:1-3 Where it is written that Christ is the express image of the PERSON of God. |
&
| You wrote: | | In according with the scriptures (which plainly say this)I gave near the end of my page 1 post, Yes. |
Hb 1:3 Who, being the Effulgence of His glory and Emblem of His assumption...
An image is not the thing of which it is an image.
An emblem is not the thing of which it is an emblem.
Paul
Last edited by Paul2 on Wed May 28, 2008 4:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: |
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Mattathias,
| Mattathias wrote: | | Neither do I. It was God who reasoned, not the plan. |
Again, that isn't how that scripture puts it, that it was God who reasoned in that verse. It was Jesus who reasoned and who we are to imitate. It shows Jesus made a conscious decision to be in the likeness of man.
I believe you and I are just going in circles.
Take care. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Again, that isn't how that scripture puts it, that it was God who reasoned in that verse. |
Please see the many translations I provided which say otherwise. | Quote: | | It was Jesus who reasoned... |
Jesus wasn't doing any reasoning until after God brought him into being through the miracle he performed in the womb of the virgin.
| Quote: | | I believe you and I are just going in circles. |
Easier than going in squares. |
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Mattathias
Big Lion
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 994
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | | Just want to get emails of updates to this thread. Good day. |
Glad you're still with us, ragman. |
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james
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Paul2,
I noticed you only used Heb 1:3 and left out all the other scriptures. And I am really baffled as to the translation you are using. |
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Paul2
Big Goldfish
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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james,
| You wrote: | | I noticed you only used Heb 1:3 and left out all the other scriptures. |
That's because I'm addressing whether an emblem or image is the thing of which it is an emblem or image.
If an emblem or image is not the thing of which it is an emblem or image and if your Bible's translation of 'hupostaseOs' is correct, Christ cannot be the same person as God (the Father).
Since the basic issue we are discussing is whether Christ is God, the Father, I quoted the verse which I considered the more relevant verse to the point I am making in relation to that basic issue.
I quoted from the Concordant version.
Paul |
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ragman13
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I may have missed it but who is saying that Christ is the Father?
[quote=Paul2]Since the basic issue we are discussing is whether Christ is God, the Father[/quote] |
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Geoff
Tadpole
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Mattathias,
I have spoken to a few Christadelphians who share your view in this. I don't believe John 17:5 allows for that understanding though. |
Hi, I'm new here so I hope I can but in here without offending.
TBax, if John 17:5 doesn't allow for that understanding, does that mean that Jesus was actually slain before he was born according to Rev. 13:8?
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Geoff. |
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