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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Steve, the self-appointed God and Judge of all that he deems worthy of his scorn wrote: | That scripture is very true, but it doesn't mean that the benevolent promises of God are for the devil and his servants.
So if you believe the scriptures why do you not believe the scriptures that point out why you are lost?
If you really believe the scriptures like you say, isn't it time for you to try to find a real Christian Church? |
Would you be kind enough to tell me, in your omniscience, exactly what 'church' I do belong to, which scriptures I do 'not' believe, and how it is that I am 'lost'?
Let us be fair. You are setting yourself up as some type of all-knowing 'god', since you've assumed that you know much about what is in my mind and heart, and life, without me having told you. So, please, enlighten me...
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Bro. Steve Winter
Big Guppy
Joined: 04 Jun 2008
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| holly102869 wrote: |
When two people get married they form a union and become one. Still two people, but work together as one.
A country for say the USA millions of people but they form one country.
The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit seperate but also one in a union. |
Oh, so you have three gods that are married or is it millions of gods that your cult teaches? Sorry, but that's not monotheism.
That is the first I have heard of any cult teaching a god squad of millions of persons, but I suppose if one is worshipping three gods that they might as well worship a bunch more. Same end result (sadly).
Bro. Winter |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 727
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Oh, so you have three gods that are married or is it millions of gods that your cult teaches? Sorry, but that's not monotheism.
That is the first I have heard of any cult teaching a god squad of millions of persons, but I suppose if one is worshipping three gods that they might as well worship a bunch more. Same end result (sadly).
Bro. Winter |
Surely you are being sarcastic here? You surely didn't get from her post that she was saying that Trinitarians believe that there are three gods that are married or millions of gods? If you weren't, this is the saddest misreprenstation of a statement I've ever seen. God bless.
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holly102869
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 278
Location: Central, Florida USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Bro. Winter
A cult???
At no time did I mention any religious cult or any sect of religion. Just a way to explain how you can see things as one and as more than one at the same time.
Mankind is one race of species.
Their are however many races in the one species.
So do you see it? One and many.
One God!
One Savior {Jesus}!
One Holy Spirit!
Three spoken of each individually in the Bible, but working as one to complete a purpose! The same goal that was intended for Adam and Eve.
I worship only the one true God. Knowing that he gave his one and only son as the ultimate sacrifice. Knowing that I have to let the power of the Holy Spirit in my heart so that one day I will see with my own eyes the Glories in Heaven. I can only recieve salvation through belief of Jesus. All three strive for me to gain salvation so they work as a one team, one family, one group as one to get me where they and I want to be. That place is with the only one true God in Heaven.
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Bless you,
Holly
Ask,Seek,Knock
For only you can Save yourself. |
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Bro. Steve Winter
Big Guppy
Joined: 04 Jun 2008
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| holly102869 wrote: | Bro. Winter
Mankind is one race of species.
Their are however many races in the one species.
So do you see it? One and many.
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OK, please clarify then, how many gods are in the god squad that you are advocating?
Bro. Winter |
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holly102869
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 278
Location: Central, Florida USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: |
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Bro. Winter,
Please don't pick and choose what you read.
| Quote: | OK, please clarify then, how many gods are in the god squad that you are advocating?
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I already told you this answer you just are trying to stir the pot.
| Quote: | One God!
One Savior {Jesus}!
One Holy Spirit!
Three spoken of each individually in the Bible, but working as one to complete a purpose! The same goal that was intended for Adam and Eve. |
How many Gods do I say there are.
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Bless you,
Holly
Ask,Seek,Knock
For only you can Save yourself. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Brother Winter, as I see it, you have a predicament.
I have yet to see any Oneness Apostolic believer address the passages that show Jesus talking to His Father, or Jesus talking about His Father in the 3rd person, or God the Father talking about Jesus in the 3rd person in a manner that does not insult the intelligence or require blind adherence. When this is brought up, Oneness Pentecostals usually fall back on saying "You just have to get the revelation", similar to the Mormons who also cannot back up what they teach.
Jesus spoke to His Father. Jesus spoke about His Father, as one does of another individual, not about oneself. It defies simple plain common sense to say they're both one person.
If I took the same discussion tactics that you use, I could easily accuse you of worshipping a schizophrenic God who talks to Himself, or a demon possesed God who babbles about Himself in the third person as though talking about the delusional spirit that posesses Him.
The Trinity sounds absurd to you because it sounds like they're reaching when they attempt to explain certain portions of scripture. Oneness fails for the same reason. It sounds like it's reaching. Pretty far. Oneness may explain some of the problem passages for trinitarians, but it fails pretty badly on certain others.
As I said, you have a dilemma. Jesus and the Father spoke of each other as separate individual personalities. To say that they are one and the same is as absurd to anyone with any sense as the three-in-one sounds to you. The Jehovah Witnesses recognize this too, and deal with it by saying that only the Father is God and Jesus is not. This explanation also fails. As you well know, the Bible identifies Jesus as God, as having Divine nature in many passages.
May I recommend rather than judge and condemn everyone like a cocky 17 year old, that you bring what you have to offer to the table, and we look for an understanding that stands up to reason and to the scriptures.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Bro. Steve Winter
Big Guppy
Joined: 04 Jun 2008
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | Brother Winter, as I see it, you have a predicament.
I have yet to see any Oneness Apostolic believer address the passages that show Jesus talking to His Father, or Jesus talking about His Father in the 3rd person, |
Predicament? I am not the one trying to justify his polytheism and rejection of Acts 2:38 salvation.
There is an answer to your question, but I'm afraid that most here are too carnal to comprehend it, but I am here reaching for any honest heart who would escape the sewers of Roman polytheism.
In this post I will attempt to explain how the son could pray to the
father and still not be two separate gods (or persons). The key to understanding this is understanding "flesh" and "spirit":......
Here, we see that God the Father of the old testament does NOT have flesh and bone (so consider also "The Right Hand" does not mean a big ole arm)..See, God is a Spirit and a spirit hath NOT flesh and bone.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth....
Also notice the importance of TRUTH in worshiping God, We MUST know WHO we are worshipping! God of the old testament came to earth in human form, he did NOT have blood to shed for anyone; sooooo he took on a human body and came to his people:......
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
II Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the
world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
In other words God came in the form of Christ, not a "second person" or "Jehovah Jr.", but God HIMSELF in a human body..the Lord of Glory himself....
I Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
God did not send anyone else to "do the dirty work"; HE CAME HIMSELF and took on a life and then gave up that life for us!!
I John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us....
God himself in a human body, but even then the Spirit of God was greater than the flesh of God..even God had to keep his flesh in subjection to his Spirit..It was not the flesh body of God that did the miracles, but rather the Spirit that was in the body...and, in the garden it was flesh praying to Spirit (not one god praying to another)
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
(The Father IN the son=The Spirit in the flesh)
Matthew 13:17 {For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them].}
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
II Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Notice "IN WHOM" in each verse, the Father (spirit) was IN the son (flesh)).
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.....
Jesus Christ, Jehovah God in the flesh....Why is this so important?!?
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, {The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:}
Not three lords, not "three separate persons", ONE GOD: JESUS!!..... That is why the Apostles baptised in Jesus Name
It is the false-christian polytheist who has the real predicament as they try to deny that the Apostles baptised in Jesus Name and all the other scriptures that they must "explain away" to remain comfortable in their third century Roman polytheism where they have become so comfortable in their carnality.
Bro. Steve Winter |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thankyou bro. Winter for responding with scripture and reason with only a minimum of accusation. | Bro. Steve Winter wrote: |
There is an answer to your question, but I'm afraid that most here are too carnal to comprehend it, but I am here reaching for any honest heart who would escape the sewers of Roman polytheism. |
We are honored that one so spiritual should deign to speak in our midst.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: |
Here, we see that God the Father of the old testament does NOT have flesh and bone (so consider also "The Right Hand" does not mean a big ole arm)..See, God is a Spirit and a spirit hath NOT flesh and bone.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.... |
What you have said here is very true. But isn't it also just as easy to say based on the two verses you have given that God the Father and Jesus Christ are not one and the same?
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | II Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the
world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
In other words God came in the form of Christ, not a "second person" or "Jehovah Jr.", but God HIMSELF in a human body..the Lord of Glory himself.... |
I see what you are understanding 2 Cor 5:19 to say. However, isn't it just as easy to understand that verse as telling us that if one had to be in the other, that they are not one and the same?
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | | I Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. |
This verse only identifies Jesus as the Lord of glory. No one denies that. It does not say He is God the Father. You are assuming that God the Father is being referred to as the Lord of glory. Perhaps that is true. But this verse does not tell us conclusively.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | | God did not send anyone else to "do the dirty work"; HE CAME HIMSELF and took on a life and then gave up that life for us!! |
This is where Oneness starts to get a little messy. Keep reading.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | | I John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us.... |
Very good. While Trinitarians would not have a problem with this, I would like to see the Witnesses address this. Of course their Bible probably reads completely differently when you get to this verse. Of course, a Trinitarian would have a problem with saying this verse was talking about God the Father.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | | God himself in a human body, but even then the Spirit of God was greater than the flesh of God..even God had to keep his flesh in subjection to his Spirit..It was not the flesh body of God that did the miracles, but rather the Spirit that was in the body...and, in the garden it was flesh praying to Spirit (not one god praying to another) |
Here is what I was talking about in my last post. The "flesh was talking to Spirit" explanation. That explanation has always seemed to me to be a reach. Scripture never tells us that God's flesh prays to His Spirit. It tells us "the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." But God's flesh praying to His Spirit seems to be a construct contrived by man to explain something that a doctrine cannot adequately explain. And if a doctrine is not adequate, it needs to be questioned. We cannot put down stakes and say we've got it figured out. We need to keep learning.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
(The Father IN the son=The Spirit in the flesh) |
But Jesus also said He was in the Father. John 14:10 does not give any indication that Jesus is explaining of what God is composed, or that He is composed of a Spirit residing within a body. It speaks of the relationship between Jesus and His Father.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
II Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Notice "IN WHOM" in each verse, the Father (spirit) was IN the son (flesh)). |
I notice the "in whom" in these three verses. Be careful here. You have misapplied that phrase, and therefore these verses. The "in whom" only means "with whom". In other words, God said "I am pleased with my Son", or "My Son pleases me well". It is not a reference to one being physically or spiritually within the other.
For that matter the whole idea of God being composed of a Spirit which resides or at one time did reside in a flesh body, as we humans are composed, is not specifically taught in the Bible. It seems to be patched together from various verses which are actually talking about other topics. Again, it seems a reach to take various things mentioned in passing in verses from here and there in the scripture, and quilt together a doctrine out of them.
Now I said that when Oneness Pentecostals say that the Lord of glory who was crucified is God the father, and that God Himself was crucified, it gets a little messy. Here is why:
Romans 10:9
| Quote: | | That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. |
1 Corinthians 6:14
| Quote: | | And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power |
1 Corinthians 15:15
| Quote: | | Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. |
Galatians 1:1
| Quote: | | Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) |
Colossians 2:12
| Quote: | | Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. |
All of these verse state that God raised Jesus from the dead. Well, any idiot knows if God Himself was dead, He couldn't have raised up anything! Isn't that right? And though Jesus, speaking metaphorically said that if the temple of His body were destroyed, He would raise it up, Paul never says that it was God our Father Himself who raised Himself up. How could He? He would have been dead! How exactly does Oneness explain how God Himself was dead for three days, and then while dead, raised Himself back to life? Sounds as absurd as a three-in-one God, doesn't it?
Once again, I appreaciate your straight answer. Would God you would see fit to leave off the blustering and answer the others here who have posed questions to you in such a straighforward manner as you have responded to me. I thank you my brother.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Bro. Steve Winter
Big Guppy
Joined: 04 Jun 2008
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: |
All of these verse state that God raised Jesus from the dead. Well, any idiot knows if God Himself was dead, He couldn't have raised up anything! Isn't that right? And though Jesus, speaking metaphorically said that if the temple of His body were destroyed, He would raise it up, |
Jesus was quite clear that He would raise up His own body. Jesus is the inventor of both life and death. They are playtoys in His hand.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
No metaphor there at all. You can either believe Jesus Christ or the Roman polytheism.
If there were any other god squad members they would be powerless.
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Bro. Winter |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | | Jesus was quite clear that He would raise up His own body. Jesus is the inventor of both life and death. They are playtoys in His hand. |
Is He? He said He received all He had from His Father. It is to God the Father that death has no meaning.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: |
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
No metaphor there at all. You can either believe Jesus Christ or the Roman polytheism. |
I meant in calling His body a temple, He used a metaphor. In saying He Himself would rebuild that temple, He may simply have been using the metaphor to make His point, and Who did the raising up was beside the point He was making.
I fully believe Jesus.
I have no interest in what the Romans think.
And I consider anything worthwhile that you bring to the table but I do not simply unquestioningly believe it. I would hope you would not expect me to.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | | If there were any other god squad members they would be powerless. |
This is interesting. If the Father ceased to exist, Jesus would also, since He receives all He has from the Father. But if the Son died, would God the Father? God Allmighty is self-existent. He would not die if the Sone did.
| Bro. Steve Winter wrote: | Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Bro. Winter |
If all power was given to Jesus, then there is someone else who gave it to Him.
Rev 1:8 is interesting. Another example, like Jesus's statement that He would come in the clouds of heaven, of Him speaking in the person of God. What the Oneness Pentecostals overlook is that this glory is not something that Jesus has in and of Himself. He received it. There is One greater than He Who gave it to Him.
Here is another seemingly absurd situation:
Jesus on the cross. Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?" If this was His flesh speaking to His Spirit, how could one forsake the other? It's not possible.
Note that He said this before His Spirit left His body. It was a little later as He hung there that He gave up the ghost. Only then did His spirit leave His flesh.
Also, God forsaking Jesus as He hung on the cross entailed something far more significant than His spirit leaving His body. It was God's presence, His love, His favor withdrawing from Jesus because of the sin He bore. It was His protection withdrawing from Jesus, leaving Him all alone to die. There was a second party involved, who left Jesus there to die bearing our sin.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 510
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | ZATHRUS SAID:
Also, God forsaking Jesus as He hung on the cross entailed something far more significant than His spirit leaving His body. It was God's presence, His love, His favor withdrawing from Jesus because of the sin He bore. It was His protection withdrawing from Jesus, leaving Him all alone to die. There was a second party involved, who left Jesus there to die bearing our sin. |
In the interest of getting it right, Jesus was quoting Ps. 22, which is obviously a prophecy by David of the crucifiction of Jesus, read the rest of the chapter, verse 23 & 24 tell us that God did not forsake Jesus. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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james
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | | Bro. Steve Winter wrote: |
Jesus could raise Himself from the dead because He is God. To God both life and death are under His complete control. That is why as real Christians we can understand that it really was God Himself on the Cross, God manifest in the flesh.
Not some junior second person in a Roman god squad!
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The Bible is very clear on this subject. The Father raised Jesus from the dead. This is made clear by many verses:
Galatians 1:1; "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead);"
1 Thessalonians 1:10; "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
Ephesians 1:20; "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places."
Romans 10:9; … "and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Romans 8:11; "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Jesus was raised by the Father’s spirit, not a third person Holy Ghost’s spirit. “God” throughout Romans 8 is a reference to the Father in every instance.
No where in Scripture does the Bible used the term “The Spirit of the Holy Spirit” in reference to a third person. In verse 11 the Spirit of him refers to the Spirit of the Father.
Romans 6:4; …"that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Romans 8:11; "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
Acts 2:24; "whom God hath raised up, verse 32; "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses."
Acts13:33-34; "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. V.34; And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David."
Acts 10: 39-40; "And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: V.40; Him hath God raised up the third day and shewed him openly. V. 41; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even unto us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead." |
Pete,
I just wanted to ask how does John 2:19-22 fit into this. For here Jesus clearly states that HE will raise up Himself ??? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | In the interest of getting it right, Jesus was quoting Ps. 22, which is obviously a prophecy by David of the crucifiction of Jesus, read the rest of the chapter, verse 23 & 24 tell us that God did not forsake Jesus. Your thoughts would be appreciated. |
Certainly.
Well, Jesus knew that He would rise from the dead long before He went to Jerusalem didn't He? He told His disciples before they went there, and they weren't able to comprehend or accept it. So Jesus knew God would not give Him up to leave HIm in the grave.
Psalm 22 ends with triumph over the enemies, and Jesus knew this would be His outcome.
Jesus also knew this Psalm:
Psalm 16:10
| Quote: | | For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. |
He knew that the cup His Father had given Him to drink, which entailed being separated from God's presence (something else that would not be possible if they were one and the same person), would not be permanent.
But as I have had it explained to me, in the moment Jesus hung on the cross bearing our sin, God in His holiness withdrew from Him. And because it needed to be so to fulfill God's plan of salvation, He withheld His protection from Jesus so that sinful men could have their way and kill Him. As Paul later wrote, if these men had known the wisdom of God, they wouldn't have killed Him.
Not a bad topic to start a separate discussion on - what happened on the cross and how it fulfilled God's plan. Maybe if we more thoroughly understood that , we'd have less differences of understanding in other areas.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 510
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus: I also have had it explained to me the way you have. But upon deeper consideration it does not make since that God would forsake anyone who was faithful especially in their darkest hr.. Stephen is a good example, and all myrters. Unless you consider allowing someone to die, forsaking them. But even this is not true, for God is not forsaking them but quite the opposite he is taking them home.
On another note, believing something because of how “I have had it explained to me” is, as we all know, not necessarily reliable. What scriptural authority do we have for believing God would forsake someone, except for Jesus quoting Ps. 22:1, and could this be that he was simply quoting prophecy and we must read the context of it to get (the rest of the story), as Paul Harvey says. Could deciding that God turned his back on Jesus because of all the sin he bore, be jumping to a conclusion, of which we as Christians are so famous for?
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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