There is no trinity

Jachin Boaz · Newbie Alert Joined: 11 May 2008 Posts: 3

Many people actually believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.
This doctrine is a very deceiving doctrine. It is easy to look in scripture and literally believe in a literal three persons in heaven. If one thinks carnal, then one will come up with natural revelation. The carnal man cannot think spiritual because he is carnal. Take a look at this scripture:

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Looking at that scripture in the natural, you will see Jesus literally standing on the right hand of God.

We know God is a spirit. He is omni present. He is everywhere. Where is the right hand of God? Where is the left hand of God? Where is God's head?

Jesus standing on the right hand of God simply means He is given that state of power.

Here is something else I want to discuss. Is there an eternal Son of God? When searching the scriptures, I have come to a conclusion that there is no eternal Son of God. I believe that the Father came in a body of flesh.

I do not believe He was the Son of God until He came into this world. I believe that the Son of God is only an office He used to redeem man from sin. Otherwise He would have mentioned Himself being the Son of God in the old testament.

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: This scripture here proves that before He came from the womb, the Son of God office never existed, or Son of God never existed. Even though He was the Son of God when He came into this world, He was not declared to be the Son of God until He was resurrected. Why? Because He had to live a sinless life being tempted in all points like we were and not sin. After He went to the grave for 3 days, the spirit of holiness looked at everything He ever did on the earth, everything in His spirit, soul and body. If He were to come short of anything and have sinned, He would not have been declared to be the Son of God.

I also believe Jesus to be the Father. ISA 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Notice it says: and the government shall rest upon His shoulder "singular", not shoulders. What is this government that shall rest upon His shoulder? It is the cross. He carried the government on His shoulder. His name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Now nowhere did it say the mighty Son of God. But it did say: The everlasting Father.

Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the Almighty God. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8) Jesus claimed to be the Father since He and the Father are one and the same Spirit. (John 10:30). Jesus Christ is the Spirit of God. "Now the Lord is that Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:17a).

Philip asked Jesus to show him the Father and this was Jesus's response. "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then , Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." (John 14:9,10). Jesus declares that he is the Father in His Person. Therefore, if you see the works that Jesus does in destroying the works of the devil, you have seen the Father manifesting Himself to the world. If you hear Jesus' words, then you have heard from the Father, for they are Spirit and they are life.

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." (Galatians 4:6). Paul declares that there is but one Spirit of God, not two or three (Ephesians 4:4b). This is the reason it was expedient that Jesus go back to heaven, for while He was in the world, He could not send forth the promise of His Spirit, since He is the Spirit of God. "It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (John 16:7b). Who is the Comforter, the Holy Ghost? "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." (John 14:18). This is Jesus Christ in His Spirit as the Father, the Holy Ghost.

The Spirit of God is the "Elohim eht", the Almighty God. The "Elohim eht" is the plurality of the attributes and majesty of God as the A through Z, the Alpha through the Omega (Greek), the Aleph through the Tahv (Hebrew). The Almighty God is the El Shaddai. Jesus proclaimed Himself as the "Elohim eht" and the "El Shaddai". "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (The Revelation 1:8). Jesus Christ is the Spirit that took on a body of flesh and blood as the Son of God for redemption of mankind. The Spirit form of Jesus Christ could not die, but the flesh form of Jesus Christ as a man could die and shed his blood for our propitiation. This is declared by Paul in his proclaiming the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9)

"Now the Lord is that Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:17a). The Lord used by Paul here is the Lord Jesus Christ for there is only one Lord. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism". (Ephesians 4:5). The Spirit of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of God which is the same Spirit as the Father or Holy Ghost, or Word. All these titles refer to the one and same Spirit of God. "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one." (1 John 5:7). "One" is from the Greek "heis" meaning "one". The Father, the Word, the Holy Ghost are One and the same Spirit, the different titles referring to the various offices of the Spirit. The Father is the Administrative office of the Spirit being a "Leader or Delegate" to all other offices of the Spirit. The Word is the "Expression" office of the Spirit being the divine "Intelligence, Wisdom, Word, Thought, Understanding, etc." The Holy Ghost is the "Power" office as the Spirit role or form of Jesus Christ. The Son of God is the "Redemptive" office of the Spirit of God. The Son of man is the "Kingdom" or "Judgment" office of the Spirit of God. The Father, or Word, or Holy Ghost is one and the same Spirit, just varying in office and roles of the Self-same Spirit. And the Word was made flesh; Jesus Christ (Spirit) is come in the flesh (sarx-flesh and blood body, a human being possessing a spirit, soul, and body). (John 1:14; 1 John 4:2).

The exterior body of Jesus Christ was a human being. This is the "schema" or outward condition or appearance of a man for Jesus was fashioned as man. His Spirit that dwelled permanently in this body of flesh was Jesus Christ, the Spirit of God being in the form of God. Jesus Christ is the Father of glory and the only true God and eternal life. "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." (1 John 5:20,21)

The Holy Ghost, which is the Spirit of Jesus, purchased us with His own blood.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1937

Jachin Boaz,

I don't believe in the trinity, and it seems you do not either, but you believe Jesus is the Father. Confused or disgusted

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

Here are some scriptures in the OT that show God as a Complex-union or Tri-union.

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

He is God but not the ID of the Father

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(Here Jesus in not in mortal form yet still refers to God as Father)

This explains why it was said that no man has seen God, yet many saw God. Remember the scripture that "Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Appearances of God

Gen. 17:1, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless."
Gen. 18:1, "Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day."
Ex. 6:2-3, "God spoke further to Moses and said to him, ‘I am the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.'"
Exodus 24:9-11, "Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank."
Exodus 33:11, "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend..."
Num. 12:6-8, "He [God] said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD..."
Acts 7:2, "And he [Stephen] said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran...."

Cant see God

Exodus 33:20, "But He [God] said, ‘You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!'"
John 1:18, "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father; He has explained Him."
1 Tim. 6:16, "[God] who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see."
John 6:46, "Not that any man has seen the Father except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father."
John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'"
Zech. 12:10, "And I [God] will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son..."

The only explaination is that no man has seen the Father so in the Old Testament they saw interacted many times with the "Word of God" before he became flesh. Remember Jesus said "before Abraham was I AM"

This is also not the Angel of the Lord as is in (Num. 22:22-26; Judges 13:1-21). The verses cited above do not say vision, dream, or Angel of the LORD. It says that people saw God (Exodus 24:9-11), that God was seen, and that He appeared as God Almighty (Ex. 6:2-3).

So this brings us to was the NT 1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Also note this was in the original text even though it was taken out of some text later.

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

You say "Many people actually believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. This doctrine is a very deceiving doctrine. It is easy to look in scripture and literally believe in a literal three persons in heaven. If one thinks carnal, then one will come up with natural revelation. The carnal man cannot think spiritual because he is carnal."

I agree, but look at this God is omni-competent(all powerful in all things, on all levels). He is everywhere always at the same time. If he can do this then what is it to say that he is not Father, Word, Holy Spirit at the same time eternally. He is one in substance or essence yet three in subsistence. Look at the Hebrew word for one. Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" Here the Lord could have used the Hebrew word that means a "solid numeric one-("yachid" or "bad"). But instead he uses "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness.

That is why the scripture says "2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
He also says "Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
So the Holy Spirit will only confirm the Word! Sometimes the scriptures means literally and sometimes figuratively but must be taken in the content itself. The Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you into all truths, but remember that God is not the author of confusion either.

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject:

just a thought here...

what if "we" are the son seated at the right hand of God.
consider the implications of that..

cool huh?

hugs
lone

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1937

The Bible makes it clear who the Son is.

Luke 22:69 However, from now on the Son of man will be sitting at the powerful right hand of God.”

Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.

BCJ5297, the Bible is correct in that no man has seen God at any time. God dealt with humans through a representative, an angel. Very likely, the one called "the word of God".

The Bible shows Moses as speaking to God, yet he did this through angels.

Acts 7:53 YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels

Gal 3:19 Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Acts 7:30 “And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si′nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. 31 Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight.

Acts 7:38 This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Si′nai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU.

God "appeared" to them in that he was speaking and dealing directly with them through His angels.

So the scripture remains accurate.

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

Ex 33:20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”

Very Happy

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:25 am Post subject:

Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

The Bible shows Moses as speaking to God, yet he did this through angels.

Acts 7:53 YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels

Yes angels were present and were used in giving the law but no angel is God. This also does not account for the many other times we clearly see God talking to God or were he refers to himself in a plural sense. In Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, this goes with the scripture Psa 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. (Act 7:55)Here all three persons of God are present and active (Father, Word and Holy Spirit in Stephen).
There are other proofs of the plurality of God in the OT:

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Psa 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (This is applied to the Son of God, the second Person in the Trinity; and therefore are not an apostrophe to the Father, as some have said; nor will they bear to be rendered, "thy throne is the throne of God", or "thy throne is God"; or be supplied thus, "God shall establish thy throne". But they are spoken of the Son of God, who is truly and properly God, the true God and eternal life; as appears by the names by which he is called, as Jehovah, and the like; by his having all divine perfections in him; by the works which he has wrought, and by the worship which is given unto him; and to whom dominion is ascribed, of which the throne is an emblem, Gen_41:40.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; these words may be considered, either as the intercession of Jehovah the Son with Jehovah the Father, for Joshua and his church, and against Satan; that he would reprove him for his malice and wickedness; stop his mouth, and silence him, that he might not go on to accuse; that he would confound his schemes, and restrain him from doing mischief; tread him down, and bruise him under the feet of his people, and pour out his wrath upon him: or as a declaration of what should be done to him, or what he himself would do; for it may be rendered)

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This passage forms the background behind Christ's use of the Messianic title "Son of Man." Note that the contexts of Psalm 2 and Daniel 7 have identical strands of thought: the inheriting of all the kingdoms of the earth. The word "Son of Man" does not here mean "a mortal man"--one from among the "sons of men." The point here is not that the Person is perfectly human. The significance of the title "Son of Man' in this passage is fourfold:

His exalted personality as the One who comes from heaven and opposes the beastly human powers, which come from earth (Daniel 7:3)

His advent in conjunction with the reappearance of the theophanic glory cloud (7:13),

His free access to the 'One who is an ancient of days' (God the Father, 7:13), and

His universal and everlasting reign (7:14). (J. B. Payne, Theology of the Older Testament, p. 265.)

There are many others that shows God is a Complex-Union and the only God.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1937

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

Deut 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

How many Jehovahs do you have?

Answer

Jehovah means Lord: I explained earlier the plurality of God (a Complex Union) in the scriputers provided. Now lets look at the scripture Deut 6:4. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" Here the Lord could have used the Hebrew word that means a "solid numeric one-("yachid" or "bad"). But instead he uses "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. Thus the title of Jehovah can be applied to any person/s of the Godhead. There is only one (yachid) God who is: Father, Word, Holy Ghost and these three are one (echad). Instead is promotes the Godhead!

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1937

BCJ5297,

Jehovah is not a title but a name.

Ex 3:15 Then God said once more to Moses:

“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite,

One means the same in our language as Echad. A group isn't indicated in Deut 6:4.
God uses singular pronouns in speaking of Himself. The Isrealites were monothiestic. The ones who actually spoke the language didn't agree with what you are saying.

Very Happy

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

In Hebrew there are two words for one

YACHID - Strongs #3173 which means one in the singular numerical, as in Genesis 21, "take your one and only Son"

ESCHAD - Strongs #259 a compound unity as in Genesis 2, "the man and woman became one flesh", which allows for the existance of more than one entity to exist within the unity

The whole point is that ESCAHD is used in the schema rather than YACHID, if it was YACHID then there would be no doubt that the schema negates any concept of plurality within the Godhead.

Here is a lexicon defintion

Yachiyd

Definition

adj

only, only one, solitary, one

only, unique, one

solitary

In the Hebrew bible it says echad which is a unified one as Deut 6:4 does indicate it. There is only one God. The verse does not indicate polytheism in any way. God is one in substance (Divine Essence) outside of this there is no god. However, as seen in the scriptures God is a complex union. If God wanted us to know he is not a complex union the word Yachid would have been used. It only means "only one". However, it is not used but echad. This along with many other scriptures show his complex union. Thus, he is three in one. Polytheism would come into play if there was more than one "substance (Divine Essence)" which there is not.

According to Strong's and the TANAKH's usage, YACHAD denotes "one unit made of parts" or "a composite parts unit".

YACHID on the other hand means "only", "sole", "solitary", etc.

"YACHAD " means "sole, one and only..." Examples: Gen. 22:12 where Abraham offers his "only" (yachad) son Isaac to the Lord. Judg. 11:34, Jephtha's daughter, who was his "only" (yachad) child. The same with Job 34:29, Ps. 22:20 and Jer. 6:26 - just a few of the many examples."

"Echad" means "united as one" - a compound one. Examples: Gen. 2:24, the man and the woman shall become one (echad) flesh. Deut 6:4 The LORD our God is one (echad) Lord" Bullinger, scholar said, "Echad is the word used for compound plurality, for a unity that is not a simple singularity; the kind of word you use for "a bunch" of grapes or "one comb" of bananas. It is a collective unity - like "one nation under God". Interestingly, when refer. is made to God who is one, the word "Yachad" or "Yachiyd" is not used.

Thus

The whole point is that ESCAHD is used in the schema rather than YACHID, if it was YACHID then there would be no doubt that the schema negates any concept of plurality within the Godhead.

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1937

"One" in english means the same thing as "Echad" does in Hebrew. The context needs to be considered to accurately understand it. At Deut 6:4 there is no hint of a group mentioned.

For example, in the following scriptures, echad (#259) is used and has nothing to do with a group or multiple items being one. Notice.

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Gen 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.

Gen 42:11 We are all one man’s sons; we are true men, thy servants are no spies.

There are like 600 example of this same usage.

In each case, one (echad) is singular and not refering to multiple acting as one. In order for it to mean multiple individualls acting as one it needs to be in context.
LIKE:

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Gen 34:16 Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people.

According to the context, echad is speaking of a unified group. Yet our english word "one" is still used and uderstood properly because of the context.

The context of Deut 6:4 does not indicate in any way a group is spoken of.
Again, the people that actually spoke Hebrew never understood what you are claiming. Smile

In contrast, yachiyd only occurs around 12 times in the entire hebrew scriptures. It is translated in the KJV as ONLY 6 times, DARLING 2 times, ONLY CHILD 1 time, ONLY SON 1 time, DESOLATE 1 time, and SOLITARY 1 time. It was never translated as "one" here.

BCJ5297 · Sea Monkey Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 12

According to Gen 10:25, was Peleg a unified one as well?

According to Gen 42:11 is Jacob a group of men???

As I mentioned earlier the word echad can mean both sole, singular one, or a unified one. In the above passage it was used as singular one. However, in Deut 6:4 echad is used (which can be a unified one also). If it was intended by God to ID himself as a singular one then yachid would have been used, right. That is why the jews attempted to change it from echad to yachid as you will read below.

My point is that Yachid would have been the better word to use as it only means "1". Many say the usage of Yachid is "Son of". However, we all know that Jesus is the Son of God. Note the following: If the use of "echad" instead of "yachid" in Deut 6:4 gave no help to the early Christians in proving to the Jews that Yahweh of the Old Testament was a multi-personal God, then Jews would not have felt compelled to change the word. If it is really that insignificant, then they would have told us the argument Christians were using to prove trinity is invalid to native Hebrews who know and speak the language. But instead, the Jews responded by changing the word in Deut 6:4 from the unified oneness (echad) to the numeric oneness (yachid). It must be most troubling for Jews that their word of choice (yachid) to describe God's oneness is never actually used in the Bible.
The fact the ESCHAD can even remotely mean unity is my point. The complex union of God is a truth upheld by the scriptures. There are many examples that shows it in the OT:

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:26)

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- (Genesis 3:22)

"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Genesis 11:7)

Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" (Isaiah 6:8)

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father (Father of Creation goes with John 1:1), Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. (Psalms 2:7)

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him (goes with John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. )

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications (Holy Spirit): and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." (futher up in this passage we read that God is talking here)

and many others. The ones above are primarly about the Word of God, but there are also many others about the Holy Ghost. The usage of "Let us" that some modalists argue that in passages like these God was addressing the angels, or perhaps using the ‘plurality of majesty’ (much like queen Victoria when she said “We are not amused”). However, there is no clear evidence that the “plurality of majesty” existed as a form of expression used by the Hebrews in biblical times. (Morey, p. 528) After the Bible was written, the time came when kings did begin to use the “plurality of majesty.” But even then they only did so when speaking to someone else. They did not speak to themselves in this way. In Genesis 1:26, God was not speaking to anyone but himself, for he said “let us create,” and only God can create. Man was not made in the image of angels but in the image of God. However, even if the majestic plural was operative in places like Genesis 1:26, that would not refute later revelations of God’s triune nature.

The Complex-Union of God is real. Dont take my word for it ask God to show you. Open yourselves and put aside your understanding and rely on him. I realize that topics like this can be used by the Enemy to cause confusion instead of unity within the Body of Christ. The ultimate point is that we each have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and have love for one another. Peace be with you all!

TBax · King of the Jungle Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1937

BCJ,