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sasquatch1221
Newbie Alert
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 3
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 Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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if you bash homosexuality, you are as bad as them. You are going against the code of the bible as well. If you chose to judge and condem others, you are trying to play a role that only god can play.
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Erasmus2004
Big Guppy
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 45
Location: Nassau County, New York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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if you bash homosexuality, you are as bad as them. You are going against the code of the bible as well. If you chose to judge and condem others, you are trying to play a role that only god can play.
 We are encouraged as Christians to hate sin, but forbidden to condem sinners (or anyone else). Most of the disagreement in this thread centers on just how sinful homosexual behavior is. I agree with Van, this is not as black and white as some believe. This is also why it is imperitive that all Christians pray and meditate frequently, so that God can communicate his will to us. I do not doubt the absolute truth of The Bible, but I do doubt our ability to interpet it absolutey correctly.
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"But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Eddy Tiner wrote: | | Considering bisexual, the term implies a person with a minimum of two sexual partners. |
bisexual, someone that cna go both ways, find no problems with falling in love with either a man or a woman, does not in any way imply s/he live in a threesome relationship.
Fake
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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behavior stems from orientation. Orientation is the result of nature, man's nature, not God's. God has a plan, man and woman, it was so from the begining when He created man and woman, He demonstrates it in His reference to the Church as the Bride of Christ, and His Word speaks of marriage as a holy estate between a man and a woman.
Man's nature is corrupted and as such his orientation is corrupted allowing things like homosexual orientation, alcholism or other addictive tendancies, proneness to excessive anger, compulsive behaviors, obsessive behaviors, etc., etc., etc.
Is being a homosexual a sin? No more so than being an alcoholic, or a hetrosexual, or a manic-depressive (IMO). Engaging in behaviors resulting from that orientation however, is a sin, as is binge-drinking, fornication, adultery, drug-use, etc., etc., etc.
DBB said: | Quote: | | ...reveals your own prurient interests and exercise of voyeurism to comment thus; and to describe physical love as a "habit" is, well, just plain pathetic. |
Physical love outside of the sanctity of a marriage, which is part of God's plan? Heck yes it is a habit, and a sin, and expressly described as a sin in scripture.
Should homosexuals live a celibate life to avoid sin? Yeah. just as single men and women should.
DBB said:
| Quote: | | God does not reject his children much as those addicted to hatred wish he would |
Tell me who are those who are 'addicted to hatred'? I've not seen anyone here express or promote anything remotely close to hatred. I've seen reliance on scripture - which you have admittedly forgone in lieu of your own preferences of what you want to beleive. You thow about horrendous implications and accusations based on what? Your personal dislike for what scripture says about homosexuality.
I will echo a portion of Piper's sermon here, for those who chose to ignore it:
I would like to be able to say of our congregation what Paul said to the church in Corinth: after mentioning "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers," he says in 6:11, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
I would like us to be a church like that - justified sinners battling together to walk in purity, with all of our differing genetic, hormonal, environmental disorders that incline everyone of us, in varying ways, to do sinful things. We will talk more about that next week. It's a very important issue. But the point for now is simply this: we want to be a church where homosexual people can either overcome their sexual disorder, or find the faith and courage and help and love and power to live a triumphant, joyful, celibate life with the disorder.
DBB said: | Quote: | | You've moved beyond the issue to a larger issue of self-esteem and self-actualization. |
Perhaps so, but the truth is that self-esteem and self-actualization is not Christ-centered and in the eyes of God is found lacking.
Van said: | Quote: | RevJp, we do not see eye to eye here. The distinction needs to be made with the term homosexuality. Proponents of the gay agenda use this term to mean those born gay, just as some people are born black or white in skin tone. I do not accept this premise, it might be true, but we do not know. The Bible only addresses the behavior, not the purported condition.
You use the term homosexual as the gay agenda folks do, accepting that people are born that way, just a product of nature, and then say that just because someone is born gay does not justify sinful behavior. Two very different views. |
I will refer you to my first paragraph in this post, and ask: what does it matter if they are born gay or just engage in the activity? an act which eminates from natural desire does not, in any way, excuse the act, if that act is one of sin. Does it make a difference if a man sleeps with a man becasue it is his nature to do so, or if he is just extra randy and wanted to get it on? NO, it matters not.
I am saying that orientation is irrelevant in the scheme of things. Being born gay no more diminishes the bible's stand on homosexual activity, than activity born out of 'habit'. I get the feeling you wish to promote the idea that being gay is a choice, and my position is that it doesn't matter in the least because the activity is a choice, not the orientation.
And ultimately, a life dedicated to Christ, a life dedicate to reliance on, belief in and trust in our Lord, is a life which will not engage in behaviors clearly said to be sin. Our nature is disordered, only Christ can set that to rights.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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RevJp, I wish to promote the idea that engaging in homosexual activity is a choice, not "being gay" is a choice! This whole idea of being born with a gay orintation may be a fiction for all or most of those who engage in the activity, why accept it as truth? Ron's post demonstrated that nurture, our experiences perhaps from early childhood affect our inclinations and desires. I wanted to be like my Dad.
You seem to want to pick a different battleground. Fine, but my battleground is important if it is on the side of truth. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:02 am Post subject: |
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DBB is continuing to assert her right to flame, trolled and belittle her opponents. This is clearly against the rules, why is she allowed the behavior. She implies her opponents are homophobic. See says we are ignorant. That we are bigoted. RevJp, Why is this behavior tolerated?
Here is just one example from a recent post:
| DBB wrote: | | Your choice of words, specifically, "caught", "nasty", and "habit", ooze your ignorance, and bigotry on this topic. The truth is no one who exercises a capacity to love is in any "caught"; stating a value judgement toward one's sexual activities (which you misunderstand as elevated in importance, as if all most LGBT people do is make the beast with two backs) reveals your own prurient interests and exercise of voyeurism to comment thus; and to describe physical love as a "habit" is, well, just plain pathetic. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | This whole idea of being born with a gay orintation may be a fiction for all or most of those who engage in the activity, why accept it as truth? Ron's post demonstrated that nurture, our experiences perhaps from early childhood affect our inclinations and desires
...You seem to want to pick a different battleground. Fine, but my battleground is important if it is on the side of truth. |
Maybe I'm missing something in what you are saying Van. Your battle ground is that 'being gay' is a choice? That homosexuals are not born gay, but choose to be gay, that it is based on how they are raised?
If this is your position then please explain the importance of it and what truth it is based on. If I am misunderstanding you, I apologize, but bear with me and clarify it for me.
For the sake of brevity, let me ask this question again, in case I have understood your position correctly: what does it matter if they are born gay or just engage in the activity?
As for this:
| Quote: | | DBB is continuing to assert her right to flame, trolled and belittle her opponents. This is clearly against the rules, why is she allowed the behavior. She implies her opponents are homophobic. See says we are ignorant. That we are bigoted. RevJp, Why is this behavior tolerated? |
I will reassert that I will not go about shutting down everyone who get's heated in their debates. DBB is not trolling, she is not flaming. Yes she is casting about some inciteful implications and some rather demeaning accusations, and you can see that I have addressed this with her in my posts.
She is, at the moment, expressing her anger, hurt, and fears, and I fully expect her to recognize the lengths she has gone to, and correct herself accordingly, as i know her well enough from this board to beleive she is not intending to hurt, or belittle anyone.
I have addressed her rhetoric just as I have yours, and i have shut neither of you down although both of you have used hurtful and inciteful language copiously.
Bottom line? everyone needs to debate the issue not the people and everyone needs to show a little understanding and patience - and self-restraint.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:31 am Post subject: |
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RevJp, I am going to repeat myself . My battle ground is not, repeat not that being gay repeat being gay is a choice. My battle ground is not that being gay is a choice. I do not know how to state that more clearly.
My groundground is that engaging in homosexual activity is a choice. I do not believe in accepting the premise of "being gay" because that might mean acceptance of being born gay. Now people may be born gay, I do not know, but I think there is overwhelming evidence that many if not most people who engage in homosexual activity are not born gay. Take all those boys abused by the priests. Did they engage in homosexual activity? Yes. We they born gay. Probably not. They were the victims of abuse. But I think a followup study might show a disproportionate number of them will adopt a gay lifestyle. Read Ron's post again!
| Ron wrote: | A study in Developmental Psychology found that 12 percent of the children of lesbians became active lesbians themselves, a rate which is at least four times the base rate of lesbianism in the adult female population.
~ Numerous studies indicate that while nearly 5 percent of males report having had a homosexual experience sometime in their lives, the number of exclusive homosexuals is considerably less: Between 1 and 2 percent of males report exclusive homosexual behavior over a several-year period. However, J. M. Bailey et al. found that 9 percent of the adult sons of homosexual fathers were homosexual in their adult sexual behavior: "The rate of homosexuality in the sons (9 percent) is several times higher than that suggested by the population-based surveys and is consistent with a degree of father-to-son transmission." |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Eddy Tiner wrote: | I have a couple of questions to add to this (already quite long) discussion.
DBB, you frequently refer to LGBT in your posts, and I believe that refers to lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender. Right? |
Correct.
| Quote: | | Since you choose to lump these together, is it safe to assume you consider them morally "equal"? |
Not only that, all are entirely and completely equally moral and holy as a heterosexual marriage.
| Quote: | | Considering bisexual, the term implies a person with a minimum of two sexual partners. Is it your contention that such a relationship would meet with God's blessing today? |
Actually a bisexual might have no sexual partner or many. So a "bisexual relationship" covers a whole lot of territory. Personally I would not presume to judge others. We have no way of knowing exactly what sort of relationships would "meet with God's blessing" at all, anyhow.
| Quote: | | And what is transgender? Sincerely; it's not in my dictionary. Is this someone who has had a sex-change operation? |
Yes and no. It is someone physically one gender who identifies with the other gender on a personal level. Some receive SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) and others don't. Another variation is the invert or hermaphrodite which may have characteristics of either gender.
I know several MTFs (Male to Female Transsexuals) but have met only one FTM (Female to Male Transsexual). They are more rare but also the medical procedures are much more expensive.
The existence of trans folk is to me solid proof that archaic doctrines about sexual orientation have no merit. Simply put, the prejudice and grandstanding on the part of the antis have no merit in science, philosophy, or religion, including Christianity.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | what does it matter if they are born gay or just engage in the activity? |
I do not think it wise to define people by their sexual attraction, and saddle them with - Oh, you are gay or you are bi sexual - as if this was fixed in concrete and there is nothing that can be done to shift the attraction so that opposite sex relationships are more positive. Understand that some people are beyond current capability to shift the preference significantly and that most people can only be shifted part way toward the heterosexual end of the scale. But for a group of people, the shift can bring an end to self loathing and depression. And it for the benefit of these people that I reject dismissing them as homosexuals that need to learn to live with it. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| sasquatch1221 wrote: | | if you bash homosexuality, you are as bad as them. You are going against the code of the bible as well. If you chose to judge and condem others, you are trying to play a role that only god can play. |
Welcome Sasquatch. Your sentiments are indicative of a good heart.
Most people who bash homosexuals really haven't thought out their position, they just intrinsically, emotionally feel 'well, it's just wrong' so they grasp a handful of Bible verses out of context to justify their behavior.
The good news is those who know an LGBT person, either through work, family, friends, church, or whatever, often change their position. What is going on in their heads before they get to that point is a demonization of "the other" which confirms their prejudices.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| What is a bi-sexual? Someone who can go either way? Or someone who goes either way, that has relations simultaneouly or serially with people of one sex and then the other. Clearly these people have a choice in the behavior whether or not in their attraction. How do homosexual men have children? Does that not indicate if the children are biological children they can go both ways and therefore are bi sexual to some degree? The whole view - you are a homosexual, you are a heterosexual is bogus; we are people with a range of sexual preferences and an ability to engage or obstain from sexual activities condemned in the Bible. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Van,
Your choice is not to debate over whether or not homosexual orientation is a physical attribute, or not. Correct?
However you express your belief that it is a choice. You assert that the preponderance of evidence shows that it IS a choice and not a fact of a particular person's existence, a natural inclination.
Your choice of debate IS that engaging in homosexual activity is a choice and that one can choose to engage or not engage in that activity. Correct?
You then appear to assert the idea that homosexuality can be 'cured':
| Quote: | | I do not think it wise to define people by their sexual attraction, and saddle them with - Oh, you are gay or you are bi sexual - as if this was fixed in concrete and there is nothing that can be done to shift the attraction so that opposite sex relationships are more positive. Understand that some people are beyond current capability to shift the preference significantly and that most people can only be shifted part way toward the heterosexual end of the scale. But for a group of people, the shift can bring an end to self loathing and depression. And it for the benefit of these people that I reject dismissing them as homosexuals that need to learn to live with it. |
So you would tell this to a man who has since his earliest memory has battle an attraction to men, and a utter lack of attraction to women? You would tell him that he can shift his attraction? How so?
DBB:
| Quote: | | Most people who bash homosexuals really haven't thought out their position, they just intrinsically, emotionally feel 'well, it's just wrong' so they grasp a handful of Bible verses out of context to justify their behavior. |
Granted, there are many who speak against homosexuality without thought to the why's or the wherefor's, but you speak of grasping at a 'handful of bible verses out of context', how so? Show us how we have taken a verse that specifically expresses homosexuality as a sin, out of context. Show us where scripture contravenes itself in establishing homosexual activity as a sin.
| Quote: | | The good news is those who know an LGBT person, either through work, family, friends, church, or whatever, often change their position. What is going on in their heads before they get to that point is a demonization of "the other" which confirms their prejudices. |
Just as many who know, or have been involved with homosexuals turn to the scripture, and away from the bastardized distortion of it, to recognize a sin for a sin. Being gay is not a sin, engaging in homosexual activity is. There is no way to dispute the truth of that, unless of course you choose to ignore or reject the Word of God, in which case it doesn't matter for your soul is lost to the Lord anyway.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Your choice is not to debate over whether or not homosexual orientation is a physical attribute, or not. Correct? |
No, I think that assertion is debatable.
| Quote: | | However you express your belief that it is a choice. You assert that the preponderance of evidence shows that it IS a choice and not a fact of a particular person's existence, a natural inclination. |
No, I did not indicate that sexual orientation is a choice, it appears to be a combination of nature and nurture. Some people may be born with a condition (perhaps the level of hormones during the fifth month for example) that predisposes them more toward the SSA end of the scale. We do not know. But studies show that a significant contribution to SSA comes from nurture, from our lifes experiences, as shown in Ron's post.
So to repeat, I do not know if nature plays a part, but evidence shows nurture plays a significant part, and to conclude it must be one or the other and not a mix is unwise.
| Quote: | | Your choice of debate IS that engaging in homosexual activity is a choice and that one can choose to engage or not engage in that activity. Correct? |
Correct!!
| Quote: | | You then appear to assert the idea that homosexuality can be 'cured' |
No, no, no! I assert that the degree of SSA (same sex attraction) can be shift by therapy. Again you use the term homosexuality without defining it as "born that way" or "people who engage in homosexual activity regardless of the reason" We need to be clear with our terms so that when I say homosexual, you know I just mean someone who engages in homosexual behavior, rather than someone born homosexual. Therefore I did not say, homosexuality, meaning born that way, can be cured in all cases. I said some people who engage in homosexual activity can have there SSA shifted more toward heterosexual attraction. This helps some individuals have a more positive heterosexual relationship but not even a majority of individuals.
| Quote: | | So you would tell this to a man who has since his earliest memory has battle an attraction to men, and a utter lack of attraction to women? You would tell him that he can shift his attraction? How so? |
No, if you mean would I tell him he could have his attraction shifted from 100, in other words no attraction whatever to women, down to 60 or less, where positive heterosexual relations occur. The shift is less than that, if memory serves it is about ten points on average, so the therapy offers help to people who score in the fifties and sixties. As I said a small fraction but these people suffer and are looking for help.
Final thought, having a degree of SSA is not a sin, but engaging in homosexual activity is a sin. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Man's nature is corrupted and as such his orientation is corrupted allowing things like homosexual orientation, alcholism or other addictive tendancies, proneness to excessive anger, compulsive behaviors, obsessive behaviors, etc., etc., etc. |
I was wondering when someone was going to get around to offering forth the Trent Lott theory.
The problem is that to love someone of the same gender is not a destructive, negative force like the things you compare it to, though bigotry is.
| Quote: | | Is being a homosexual a sin? No more so than being an alcoholic, or a hetrosexual, or a manic-depressive (IMO). Engaging in behaviors resulting from that orientation however, is a sin, as is binge-drinking, fornication, adultery, drug-use, etc., etc., etc. |
Again you reveal your ignorance of human sexuality 101. There is absolutely no sin in gay love whatsoever.
[QUOTE]DBB said:[quote]...reveals your own prurient interests and exercise of voyeurism to comment thus; and to describe physical love as a "habit" is, well, just plain pathetic. | Quote: | | Physical love outside of the sanctity of a marriage, which is part of God's plan? |
Very good argument in support of gay marriage and civil union and performing of same gender Holy Union Ceremonies in Churches there!
| Quote: | | Heck yes it is a habit, and a sin, and expressly described as a sin in scripture. |
Wrong. The Bible is entirely silent on the issue of same gender love. And as usual you reveal your ignorance of the dynamics of romance.
| Quote: | | Should homosexuals live a celibate life to avoid sin? Yeah. just as single men and women should. |
And when they find the "one", they should marry him or her, and such should be permitted in all jurisdictions and by all churches. Thanks again for a cogent argument in favor of same gender unions!
| Quote: | DBB said: | Quote: | | God does not reject his children much as those addicted to hatred wish he would |
Tell me who are those who are 'addicted to hatred'? I've not seen anyone here express or promote anything remotely close to hatred. |
Hatred is not only Fred Phelps and his umpteen children shouting "God Hates Fags!" at Matt Sheppard's funeral. Actually I thank God for Phelps' ministry because it reveals to the public what the entire anti-gay movement is all about. It is about denying the humanity of another group of people the speaker is prejudiced against, and advocating policies specifically designed to harm them. Rick Santorum is every bit as bad as a hatemonger as Fred Phelps, if not a worse one, because he is a deceiver and a mocker as well, couching his hatred in dulcet tones.
| Quote: | | I've seen reliance on scripture - |
...used as an excuse for bad behavior.
| Quote: | | which you have admittedly forgone in lieu of your own preferences of what you want to beleive. |
Most Christians are not fundamentalists, including myself. It's nothing special. You only reveal your own ignorance of Christianity by finding that remarkable at all.
| Quote: | | You thow about horrendous implications and accusations based on what? |
First off, identifying perpetrators of hatred, prejudice, and bigotry is hardly 'horrendous' since it's so common.
| Quote: | | Your personal dislike for what scripture says about homosexuality. |
No, because it says zero about homosexual relationships of today.
| Quote: | I will echo a portion of Piper's sermon here, for those who chose to ignore it:
I would like to be able to say of our congregation what Paul said to the church in Corinth: after mentioning "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers," he says in 6:11, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
I would like us to be a church like that - justified sinners battling together to walk in purity, with all of our differing genetic, hormonal, environmental disorders that incline everyone of us, in varying ways, to do sinful things. We will talk more about that next week. It's a very important issue. But the point for now is simply this: we want to be a church where homosexual people can either overcome their sexual disorder, or find the faith and courage and help and love and power to live a triumphant, joyful, celibate life with the disorder. |
That is a statement of hate speech and indicative of the man's ignorance and hubris.
Homosexuality is not a sexual disorder any more than being left-handed is a muscle disorder.
That arrogant scoundrel should be told he should live a celibate life to show him how evil his advice is; heck, he should probably do it anyway to avoid passing down his hatred to the next generation.
[QUOTE]DBB said:[quote]You've moved beyond the issue to a larger issue of self-esteem and self-actualization. | Quote: | | Perhaps so, but the truth is that self-esteem and self-actualization is not Christ-centered and in the eyes of God is found lacking. |
I'm glad you've brought this up, because this is where there is ean essential difference between fundamentalists and mainstream Christians. This line of thought goes along with your cohort's advocacy of physical punishment of children and military discipline.
A God who does not want his children to think well of themselves would be an evil God, totally unworthy of worship and deserving of murder. However, such a God does not exist except in the recesses of the minds of the timorous and the wrathful. The real God of Christ and Christianity is not like that at all. If you are able to mature in faith you will realize that at some later date, and I certainly pray you do.
| Quote: | | I am saying that orientation is irrelevant in the scheme of things. |
Only to those ignorant of the discoveries of science. The stand homosexuality is 'sinful' is simply inoperative. One may as well believe in the flat earth.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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