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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:32 pm Post subject: Judge not! |
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Borrowing characters from C. S. Lewis, imagine this dialogue between a junior demon named Wormwood and his wicked uncle Screwtape. This fiendish exchange could have occurred a century ago.
Wormwood: Believers have so many weapons at their disposal. It is difficult to neutralize them. It takes a huge effort just to slow the work of a single Christian.
Screwtape: Your one-on-one approach is inefficient. This is the age of Madison Avenue and mass marketing. If you can undermine their whole group at once, then you’ve accomplished something.
Wormwood: Unfortunately, I’m not highly productive. In the time it takes me to frustrate one believer, I could be tempting a dozen heathens.
Screwtape: Don’t lose heart, Wormwood. We are implementing a plan to impair the whole Church with a single ploy.
Wormwood: I don’t see how that will be possible. The Christians that I’ve seen are dedicated to warning others about hell. It’s all I can do just to get one of them distracted for a short time.
Screwtape: We are going to use their Leader’s own words.
Wormwood: No! Please don’t. Don’t even joke about using His words. I can’t take it.
Screwtape: If you’re ever going to grow up to be an effective demon, you’re going to have to learn to use the Enemy’s words against Him.
Wormwood: It just seems so dangerous. Which words are you going to use?
Screwtape: "Judge not!"
Wormwood: I don’t understand why He would tell them not to judge. That’s confusing. He commanded His followers to rebuke, admonish and judge hundreds of times in His Book. And that’s what they’re out there doing. And I might add, it’s causing me no end of grief.
Screwtape: When their Leader said those words, He was speaking to hypocrites. "Judge not… you hypocrite," as He said later in the same paragraph.
Wormwood: Yeah, but how are we going to use "Judge not" to neutralize the whole Church?
Screwtape: We are going to get them to ignore the fact that He was talking to hypocrites. He said that hypocrites should not judge, at least not until they stop doing the wrong deed themselves. But we are going to make them think that none of them should judge.
Wormwood: That’s brilliant… if you can pull it off, that is. I mean, if we can get them to stop judging, then they won’t rebuke the wicked. And they won’t be able to admonish those who are sexually immoral.
(BTW, this is a cut and paste from part of an article on the web, I did not put it together.) |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Judge not! |
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| Van wrote: | | When their Leader said those words, He was speaking to hypocrites. |
If this is accurate, then, the point is invalid vis-a-vis the topics at hand because to be in the Religious Right in America today is, among other things, to be a hypocrite. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:05 am Post subject: Humor |
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DBB, I really appreciated the ironic humor you used in repeating the tapeworm argument, I hope others got it. Judge not because...you are hypocrites  |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:27 am Post subject: hypocricy |
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Is not sin, sin? I could glean from your post that we are allowed to judge someone's sin if we ourselves do not engage in that particular sin - is that an accurate interpretation of what you are meaning to say?
| Quote: | Matthew 7
1DO NOT judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves.
2For just as you judge and criticize and condemn others, you will be judged and criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you [use to] deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you.
3Why do you [1] stare from without at the [2] very small particle that is in your brother's eye but do not become aware of and consider the beam [3] of timber that is in your own eye?
4Or how can you say to your brother, Let me get the tiny particle out of your eye, when there is the beam [4] of timber in your own eye?
5You hypocrite, first get the beam of timber out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the tiny particle out of your brother's eye. |
or:
| Quote: | John 8
1BUT JESUS went to the Mount of Olives.
2Early in the morning (at dawn), He came back into the temple [[1] court], and the people came to Him in crowds. He sat down and was teaching them
3When the scribes and Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery. They made her stand in the middle of the court and put the case before Him.
4Teacher, they said, This woman has been caught in the very act of adultery.
5Now Moses in the Law commanded us that such [women--offenders] shall be stoned to death. But what do You say [to do with her--what is Your sentence]?(1)
6This they said to try (test) Him, hoping they might find a charge on which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger.
7However, when they persisted with their question, He raised Himself up and said, Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.
8Then He bent down and went on writing on the ground with His finger.
9They listened to Him, and then they began going out, conscience-stricken, one by one, from the oldest down to the last one of them, till Jesus was left alone, with the woman standing there before Him in the center of the court.
10When Jesus raised Himself up, He said to her, Woman, where are your accusers? Has no man condemned you?
11She answered, No one, Lord! And Jesus said, I do not condemn you either. Go on your way and from now on sin no more. |
It is not known what Christ wrote in the sand as the Pharisees spoke to Him, but it is believed by many biblical scholars that as they were accusing the woman of her sin, Christ was writing out their individual sins in the sand. Demonstrating their hypocricy for judging the woman when they themselves had hidden sins.
When all is said and done, whether or not we determine that we have a God given right to judge our bretheren or not, or if we determine the true nature of that judgement, it boils down to charitableness, love, patience, understanding, and the Spirit to correct not to condemn:
| Quote: | 1 Corinthians 13
1If I speak in the tongues[1] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[2] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| RevJp, I do not know if you were addressing your comments to me or DBB? If you were addressing me, then no, your description of your perception of my view is distorted and wrong. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:08 am Post subject: wow Van |
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| Golly Van, a simple: "No JP, that isn't what I meant" would have worked just fine. I don't understand why you use such strong language in your replies. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:48 am Post subject: Golly |
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RevJp, it seems nothing I say contrary to your views is anything but an attack on you. My prayer is that God, perhaps through others, will help you grow stronger in the Lord.
The views expresses by RevJP, concerning the biblical view of judging those that claim to be of God, are utterly bogus. They are an attempt to use the traditions of men (post-modern liberalism) to make the word of God to no effect. It is a distorted and wrong view to say everyone's view must be respected, rather than false views exposed. We do not need to be perfect, sinless, in order to point out that such and such a view does not mesh with the Bible. We do not need to remain silent for fear we will be charged with being unloving, intentionally insulting, or using strong language when we defend the truth in the Word of God.
Judge Not and you will fall into error. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Humor |
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| Van wrote: | | DDB, I really appreciated the ironic humor you used in repeating the tapeworm argument, I hope others got it. Judge not because...you are hypocrites |
Okay, thanks, but do you mean you agree with me? |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Golly |
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| Van wrote: | | RevJp, it seems nothing I say contrary to your views is anything but an attack on you. My prayer is that God, perhaps through others, will help you grow stronger in the Lord. |
It is reasonable that that particular prayer be prayed for him, me, you and all other Christians then.
| Quote: | | The views expresses by RevJP, concerning the biblical view of judging those that claim to be of God, are utterly bogus. |
Are you Keneau Reeves? I sympathize with wanting to argue against someone and not being able to find the right words.
| Quote: | | They are an attempt to use the traditions of men (post-modern liberalism) to make the word of God to no effect. It is a distorted and wrong view to say everyone's view must be respected, rather than false views exposed. We do not need to be perfect, sinless, in order to point out that such and such a view does not mesh with the Bible. We do not need to remain silent for fear we will be charged with being unloving, intentionally insulting, or using strong language when we defend the truth in the Word of God. |
The problem with this is it postulates a conspiracy when in truth it's just spiritual maturity to recognize you don't have all the answers and neither does anybody else.
| Quote: | | Judge Not and you will fall into error. |
Not according to Christ. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:14 am Post subject: Wrong again |
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The premise that we cannot know anything with sufficent certainty that we cannot challenge the views of others is another tenet in the bogus view of post-modern liberalism.
Here is how DBB put it:
"The problem with this is it postulates a conspiracy when in truth it's just spiritual maturity to recognize you don't have all the answers and neither does anybody else."
If you are spiritually mature, you will agree with DBB
The fallacy, in case it is not obvious, is that if you attack knowledge you attack your own as well. Therefore, if DBB's bogus premise was true, then DBB cannot know that no one has sufficent knowledge to call a shovel a shovel. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| As Christians we are always called upon to express humility and admit we may possibly be wrong. To do otherwise is to practice a different religion. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:09 pm Post subject: response |
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DBB, apples and oranges. A keen awarness of our flawed behavior and our limited knowlege does not mean we cannot oppose falsehoods. The fact that you think we should not judge indicates you have made a judgment concerning what the word of God allows you to do. If the word of God says we should help our wayward brothers in Christ, then we need to determine who is wayward, we need to judge their words and deeds to determine if they are in the will of God. If we cannot know, then we cannot help, we can only tolerate. In addition to building up others, we are told to stay clear of false teachings, but to stick to the truth. How do we do this if we cannot discern what is right? We can't. Thus post-modern liberalism is a tradition of man that makes the Word of God to no effect.
Judging is not only the essence of thought, it is the Command of Christ. Just as rebuttal is not the same as rebuke, discernment needed to carry out the commands of Christ is not the same as condemnation of one of God's kids. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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JP:
| Quote: | | Is not sin, sin? I could glean from your post that we are allowed to judge someone's sin if we ourselves do not engage in that particular sin - is that an accurate interpretation of what you are meaning to say? |
Van:
| Quote: | | If you were addressing me, then no, your description of your perception of my view is distorted and wrong. |
JP:
| Quote: | | Golly Van, a simple: "No JP, that isn't what I meant" would have worked just fine. I don't understand why you use such strong language in your replies. |
Van:
| Quote: | | RevJp, it seems nothing I say contrary to your views is anything but an attack on you. My prayer is that God, perhaps through others, will help you grow stronger in the Lord. |
I fairly asked if I interpreted your point correctly. If my interpretation was incorrect a simple explanation would have sufficed, instead it is called distorted and wrong. I may have interpreted you wrongly, that is why I asked. If my wonder at the type of language you use bothers you I apologize. I just fail to understand why you seem so angry and quick to 'slap down' others who may not agree with you. Your points can easily be made and accepted without the excess baggage brought along by inflamatory language. You may feel that you are justified in taking a 'hard line' with anyone who questions you, but I still feel that it is unnecessary, and counterproductive.
As for this:
| Quote: | | The views expresses by RevJP, concerning the biblical view of judging those that claim to be of God, are utterly bogus. They are an attempt to use the traditions of men (post-modern liberalism) to make the word of God to no effect. It is a distorted and wrong view to say everyone's view must be respected, rather than false views exposed. We do not need to be perfect, sinless, in order to point out that such and such a view does not mesh with the Bible. We do not need to remain silent for fear we will be charged with being unloving, intentionally insulting, or using strong language when we defend the truth in the Word of God. |
The 'views' I expressed in my post were merely passages quoted from Scripture. If you feel those 'views' are wrong I suggest you tell God He is bogus for inspiring men to write them. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: response |
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| Van wrote: | DBB, apples and oranges. A keen awarness of our flawed behavior and our limited knowlege does not mean we cannot oppose falsehoods. The fact that you think we should not judge indicates you have made a judgment concerning what the word of God allows you to do. If the word of God says we should help our wayward brothers in Christ, then we need to determine who is wayward, we need to judge their words and deeds to determine if they are in the will of God. If we cannot know, then we cannot help, we can only tolerate. In addition to building up others, we are told to stay clear of false teachings, but to stick to the truth. How do we do this if we cannot discern what is right? We can't. Thus post-modern liberalism is a tradition of man that makes the Word of God to no effect.
Judging is not only the essence of thought, it is the Command of Christ. Just as rebuttal is not the same as rebuke, discernment needed to carry out the commands of Christ is not the same as condemnation of one of God's kids. |
I understand your position but I must disagree. I can understand some rebuking to murderers but homosexuals, etc., harm no one and are therefore best left alone. If you do not believe to form a romantic attachment to someone of the same gender and get physical with the person is right, then, by all means, don't do it. But others believe differently and to be thus is to have a differing orientation so you are in no position to judge them. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
BTW, from whom do you get that phrase 'post-modern liberalism'? I can sense the term is used to distinguish between classical liberalism like that of Thomas Paine and John Locke and the modern dilemmas but I hadn't heard it before; of course I've heard of liberalism and post-modernism or post-industrialism but not this. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:09 pm Post subject: Lets take it one step at a time |
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DBB, lets take it one step at a time. It seems you agree that judging is necessary, everybody does it and it is commanded by the Bible.
You disagee with the mainstream view that the Bible says homosexual activity is wrong. You say we cannot know what the bible is teaching and your opinion of the meaning of the text is as good as anyone else, so we should not tell you the bible says its wrong.
Do I have your position down correctly? |
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