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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 843
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | Forgiveness is for the forgiver not the recipient of the forgiveness. The action that causes the need for forgiveness is still something between that person and God and they will still have to deal with Him in the end.
Remember the "Lord's prayer" if we dont forgive then we cannot be forgiven ourselves. For whatever measure we can forgive others is the same measured out to us. Everyone of us is in need of forgiveness. |
I think you are right 45 that forgiveness is for the forgiver. But it is also part of the path of reconciliation between both sides, the forgiver and forgiven.
| RevJP wrote: | | For the record, I don't think Plot is on the right track... |
Thanks old friend. I can count on you to help balance my opinion with a different viewpoint. You are right that this shouldn't become a capital punishment thread. But the topic is closely linked to the OP. I find that believers in capital punishment tend to quote the OT more than the NT, especially "an eye for an eye," and that those against capital punishment are the reverse in their quotes from the bible, quoting the NT more than the OT, especially the sermon on the mount. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3190
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| 45 wrote: | | Forgiveness is for the forgiver not the recipient of the forgiveness. The action that causes the need for forgiveness is still something between that person and God and they will still have to deal with Him in the end. |
I think this is a good point. IMO, the admonition to love your enemies falls into the same category. It is righteousness on the part of the one who loves and not on the part of the enemy. As God loving his enemies shows his righteousness and not man's.
Our forgiving and loving is for a testimony to us. How the other receives it is a seperate matter and is a testimony for them or against them.
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Key of Twilight wrote: | | You say we "Condone" them, but are you not judging them as unworthy of being saved by putting them to death? |
That is a misconception among many believers that God will eventually through enough prayer save everyone or many people. If God wants a person saved he will do it before they are put to death. Doesn't mean they still do not have to suffer consequences.
Fact is most serial killers are NOT and NEVER will be remorseful for what they do...they are mentally ill or demon possessed or oppressed to the point of no return, I honestly think some people are just born evil, or are psychologically really messed up.
So you are saying it is worth hurting hundreds of INNOCENT victims and their families over one sicko??? |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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God and the Death Penalty
by Pastor Bob Enyart
Jeffrey Dahlmer raped, killed and ate parts of at least thirteen men. As punishment, the government was planning to feed, clothe, educate, medicate, entertain, and legally represent him for the rest of his life. Families of his victims would pay taxes, in part, to keep Dahlmer comfortable, warm in winter and cool in summer. That type of punishment should scare the dickens out of other mass murderers. Interrupting the governments plans for Dahlmer however, an inmate beat the cannibal to death in prison.
Some oppose the death penalty on practical grounds, arguing that it is not a deterrent. However, in the late sixties, when there were an average of 6,000 murders a year, the United States Supreme Court struck down the death penalty as unconstitutional in the way it was administered. Six years later, when it was re-instituted in the early seventies the number of average annual murders had jumped to nearly 16,000 victims per year.
In countries like Saudi Arabia, which enforce a swift and certain death penalty, violent crime is rare. Singapore and Los Angeles have equivalent populations, yet in one year Singapore had 58 murders (most followed by swift execution) while Los Angeles had 1,063. Criminal sub-cultures like the Mafia show that the death penalty is a powerful deterrent even among career criminals, since few will ever double-cross their superiors, fearing the repercussions.
Others oppose the death penalty on moral grounds. The "morality" arguments of atheists are not persuasive because if there is no God, then there is no absolute morality, only arbitrary and subjective opinion. The anti-death-penalty morality arguments of some Christians, on the other hand, are persuasive to many. They base their arguments on statements made by Jesus Christ and therefore many listen attentively.
These "moral" opponents of the death penalty often intimidate good people into shying away from execution. Many Christians claim society should forgive criminals and instruct them to "go and sin no more." Ideas have consequences and the popularity of this idea parallels a huge sustained crime epidemic.
There is a right way to deter criminals and to end the crime epidemic. That deterrence, however, does not lie in telling Dahlmer to "go and eat no more.".........
TO READ MUCH MORE ON THE SUBJECT GO HERE......
http://www.theologyonline.com/DEATH.HTML |
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JB
Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 531
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Romans,
I too believe in the death penalty. Unfortunately the corruption in our legal system has become so bad that many innocent people have faced death row. The Lawyers are no longer interested in finding the truth but getting a conviction so that they don't lose there political status.
I know a case personally where a Christina manis in prison facing death row. He wasn't any where around the crime scene at the time of the crime but all the evidence surrounding that portion of the case was deemed inadmisable. Of course the result being, death row.
JB |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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JB I agree our justice system is so messed up that innocent people are put away I agree.
That is why I honestly think it isn't as easy as saying yes for the death penalty or no to the death penalty. there are many changes that need to be done and one of those is looking at EACH case as an individual case, having law enforcement being fair and not pressuring people into false confessions and extreme punishment for SICK/UNREMORSEFUL criminals compared to those who made a mistake due to drugs, alcohol or a one time offense, mental illness ect. All factors need to be considered not just a one crime fits one punishment.
All I am saying is we in America are too soft and our justice system is screwed up.
But as long as we have BLEEDING HEART liberals it will never get better that is for sure. |
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JB
Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 531
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Romans,
I think that the Romans had it right. As people traveled into the cities they would see the criminals hanging on crosses as a reminder of Roman rule. Tho we might not like it, we could be assured that there would be a lot less criminals. Wouldn't that be nice?
JB |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of things:
1) I would challenge this assertion:
| JB wrote: | | Unfortunately the corruption in our legal system has become so bad that many innocent people have faced death row. |
I do not believe there are any substantive evidences to show that many innocents have faced death row. Certainly there are one or two accounts out there, but in the scheme of things I deny that this can be considered 'many'.
2) Capitol punishment is a determination of the state, and scripturally the government has the God given right to put into place and enforce the laws it and its society deem appropriate. This is an OT and NT point of view.
3) Christ Jesus never spoke against the state/government for doing what it deemed appropriate in relation to crime and punishment. Every word He uttered regarding judgment, forgiveness, etc. was addressed to individuals for the sake of the individual's walk with Him.
4) A coherent and consistently applied punishment system is a strong deterrent to crime. If the punishments are severe enough (appropriate to the crime) and applied according to law with no waffling, then they serve as a deterrent. |
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JB
Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 531
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP,
No disrespect intended but you are really out there on this one.
Here is a partial list and just so the you know, I deleted over 100 because i just didn't think that it was necessary to include them all.
David Keaton Charges Dismissed
Samuel A. Poole Charges Dismissed
Wilbert Lee Pardoned
Freddie Pitts Pardoned
James Creamer Charges Dismissed
Christopher Spicer Acquitted
Thomas Gladish NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed
Richard Greer NM Charges Dismissed
Ronald Keine NM Charges Dismissed
Clarence Smith NM Charges Dismissed
Delbert Tibbs FL Charges Dismissed
Earl Charles GA Charges Dismissed
Jonathan Treadway Acquitted
Gary Beeman Acquitted
Jerry Banks Charges Dismissed
Larry Hicks Acquitted
17 Charles Ray Giddens Charges Dismissed
Michael Linder Acquitted
Johnny Ross Charges Dismissed
Ernest (Shuhaa) Graham Acquitted
Annibal Jaramillo Charges Dismissed
Lawyer Johnson MA Charges Dismissed
Larry Fisher Acquitted
Anthony Brown Acquitted
Neil Ferber Charges Dismissed
Clifford Henry Bowen Charges Dismissed
Joseph Green Brown Charges Dismissed
Perry Cobb Acquitted
Darby (Williams) Tillis Acquitted
Vernon McManus Charges Dismissed
Anthony Ray Peek Acquitted
Juan Ramos Acquitted
Robert Wallace Acquitted
Richard Neal Jones Acquitted
Willie Brown FL Charges Dismissed
Larry Troy Charges Dismissed
Randall Dale Adams Charges Dismissed
Robert Cox Charges Dismissed
Timothy Hennis Acquitted
James Richardson Acquitted
Clarence Brandley Charges Dismissed
John C. Skelton Acquitted
Dale Johnston Charges Dismissed
Jimmy Lee Mathers Acquitted
Gary Nelson Charges Dismissed
Bradley P. Scott Acquitted
Charles Smith Acquitted
Jay C. Smith Acquitted
Kirk Bloodsworth Charges Dismissed
Federico M. Macias Charges Dismissed
Walter McMillian Charges Dismissed
I guess we disagree
JB |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think you both have valid points.
I didn't look up your list of people and if they are innocent then so be it and is one reason why more work needs to be done with our juridical system.
That said, and I hate to say this but it is true. These people I am sure were either at the wrong place at the wrong time, or they had a HISTORY of crime which made them suspect or falsely identified by witnesses.
Sad to say most I am sure had a history of crime which made them highly suspect. If they were not picked up for the crime they did not commit then they would eventually be picked up for something else if not latter down the road the same kind of crime. 
My main point which I am sure is the same as JB and REVJP is that if we had STRICTER laws and quickly ENFORCED them...then we would have much LESS crime and fewer innocent people and innocent family members being devastated.
And to me that would well worth it. I was almost raped and killed right after I got saved at 22 and thank the Lord I was able to STAB my attacker with his own knife as he attacked me with a hammer instead of his knife which I was able to get a hold of. It was a 3 1/2 hour ordeal in which I will not go into detail.
I'm sorry but I'm for the rights of the VICTIMS not the perpetrators! |
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ragman13
Labrador
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 322
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Hello JB are you working from this list of 102 published by the DPIC?
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=2338
What is the real number of actual innocents released from death row?
| Quote: | | A review of the DPIC 102 case descriptions finds that only about 32 claim actual innocence, with alleged proof to support the claim. 12 of those 32 are DNA cases. That is 32 cases out of about 7300 death sentences since 1973, or 0.4%. . . . When reviewing various case descriptions by DPIC and then comparing them to the actual record, there is an obvious pattern of inaccuracy (11). This provides little doubt that many of the remaining 32 case descriptions by DPIC are also inaccurate. No responsible, objective party would depend upon the DPIC case descriptions. . . . Of those 102 DPIC "innocent" cases, 24 have been identified by the DPIC as being from the state of Florida. The Florida Commission on Capital Cases conducted a thorough review of those 24 cases. The Commission found that 4 of those might have a credible claim of actual innocence. . . . That reveals an 83% error by the DPIC in their Florida case descriptions. If the DPIC has a consistent error rate, nationwide, that would indicate that there is evidence for claiming 17 actual innocents within their 102 innocents claim -- or 0.2% of the 7400 sentenced to death since 1973. . . . |
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Innocence.htm
Are there any stats of innocent people that were actually put to death and later found to be innocent? All this information shows me is that the process is working. 0.02% is a really good job in my opinion. And that 0.02% were not executed. |
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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 843
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Hi JP. I guess I'll offer an opposing opinion to some of yours.
| RevJP wrote: |
I do not believe there are any substantive evidences to show that many innocents have faced death row. Certainly there are one or two accounts out there, but in the scheme of things I deny that this can be considered 'many'.
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There are far more than a few accounts. Just this morning I heard on the CBC (Canadian) news that one person convicted of murder may be innocent because the notorious serial killer Paul Bernardo has confessed to the crime. In fact Bernardo seems to have left a possible string of miscarriages of justice in his wake. A number of murders that he committed led to other people being convicted for them. If Canada had the death penalty some of these people would probably be dead. Steven Truscott was almost executed. He is Canada's most famous case. Lots of other miscarriages JP, lots of others ....
| Quote: |
2) Capitol punishment is a determination of the state, and scripturally the government has the God given right to put into place and enforce the laws it and its society deem appropriate. This is an OT and NT point of view.
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The bible does not give the state the right to do anything it pleases. Mugabe in Zimbabe is doing what he and his government "deem appropriate" in your words. Does the bible give them the right?
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3) Christ Jesus never spoke against the state/government for doing what it deemed appropriate in relation to crime and punishment. Every word He uttered regarding judgment, forgiveness, etc. was addressed to individuals for the sake of the individual's walk with Him.
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Sigh. Another argument from silence! Jesus did not say that governments could do anything they "deemed appropriate" to use your words again. Jesus preached love, even for those who persecute us.
| Quote: |
4) A coherent and consistently applied punishment system is a strong deterrent to crime. If the punishments are severe enough (appropriate to the crime) and applied according to law with no waffling, then they serve as a deterrent. |
Coherent and consistent yes. Severity is different from coherence and consistency.
If what you say were true in regard to capital punishment then you might expect countries with capital punishment to have a lower murder rate than countries without capital punishment. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: |
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JB, ragman already addressed the 'innocents' so I will decline to research further at this point.
Plot;
| JB wrote: | There are far more than a few accounts.
Lots of other miscarriages JP, lots of others .... |
I'm left wondering at what you deem to be 'far more than a few'? You gave one example. You allude to the possibility of a few more, and have turned the topic to 'miscarriages of justice', whereas the issue was 'innocents facing death row'. ragman gave us a documented statistic:
| Quote: |
or 0.2% of the 7400 sentenced to death since 1973. . . |
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Which statistically and scientifically is considered insignificant. To my mind that is consistent with what I had stated:
| Quote: |
but in the scheme of things I deny that this can be considered 'many'. |
| Quote: |
The bible does not give the state the right to do anything it pleases. Mugabe in Zimbabe is doing what he and his government "deem appropriate" in your words. Does the bible give them the right? |
This isn't what I said, is it? I said:
| Quote: | | scripturally the government has the God given right to put into place and enforce the laws it and its society deem appropriate. |
| Quote: | | Jesus did not say that governments could do anything they "deemed appropriate" to use your words again. Jesus preached love, even for those who persecute us. |
I'm confused about what you are debating. I'm speaking of crime and punishment as instituted and applied by society and its governments - what are you talking about?
Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God He made man.
Rom 13:1-7 LET EVERY person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities. For there is no authority except from God [by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist do so by God's appointment. [Prov. 8:15.] (2) Therefore he who resists and sets himself up against the authorities resists what God has appointed and arranged [in divine order]. And those who resist will bring down judgment upon themselves [receiving the penalty due them]. (3) For civil authorities are not a terror to [people of] good conduct, but to [those of] bad behavior. Would you have no dread of him who is in authority? Then do what is right and you will receive his approval and commendation. (4) For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, [you should dread him and] be afraid, for he does not bear and wear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant to execute His wrath (punishment, vengeance) on the wrongdoer. (5) Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath and escape punishment, but also as a matter of principle and for the sake of conscience. (6) For this same reason you pay taxes, for [the civil authorities] are official servants under God, devoting themselves to attending to this very service. (7) Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
| Quote: | Coherent and consistent yes. Severity is different from coherence and consistency.
If what you say were true in regard to capital punishment then you might expect countries with capital punishment to have a lower murder rate than countries without capital punishment. |
Once more you seemed to have ignored what I stated, or are debating something else entirely.
Punishment that is not appropriate severe to match the crime, no matter how consistently applied, does not act as a deterrent. The punishment must be severe enough, and coherently and consistently applied in order to deter crime. This is exactly what I have stated, and have now done so again.
Your argument is that countries with capital punishment should have a lower murder rate, however, that argument ignores consistency and coherency. If you care to look at the countries with capital punishment laws you will see weak enforcement, inconsistency, incoherent application, and a hodgepodge of other problems, which unfortunately nullifies the deterrent effect. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Romans 13
Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Love, for the Day is Near
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. |
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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 843
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I'm confused about what you are debating. I'm speaking of crime and punishment as instituted and applied by society and its governments - what are you talking about?
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I'm talking about the same thing JP. It is just that I do not make the distinction you make. For me the actions of society are nothing except the collective actions of the individuals involved. So the morality of the individual extends to society.
A few comments on convictions of innocent people. You and I can both agree I hope that the empirical evidence for the widespread conviction of innocent people is ambiguous. A considerable amount of scientific research has to be done to determine the true facts of the situation. It is unlikely that any serious presentation of the evidence--statistical, forensic, sociological--can be done on this forum. At best we can only link to web pages. Unfortunately, most of these web pages are not peer reviewed, and are largely advocacy pages for one side or the other. So it is no wonder that folks here are not swayed by these links. However, from where I stand at the moment--this is my opinion, I do not claim authority on the matter--the problem of the conviction of innocents remains sufficiently worrisome that I consider it a serious issue. |
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