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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 511
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 Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Keep digging Romans, "We'll understand it all, by and by"
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Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD |
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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The problem I have with Calvinism has more to do with the perservering of Saints. (the P in the Calvinist TULIP doctrine)
It says that if you do not perservere it proves you were never been saved to begin with. But this idea could easily missinterpreted as having to do and maintain good works to be saved.
On the other side of that Arminians says that when you sin you can lose you salvation. (but if that were the case we would all lose it everyday.)
The problem I see with both of these views is that there is no assurance of salvation. It is about doing works which no one is capable of, Christian or not.
Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I have included verse 10 here because I know if I did not someine would bring it up. Should we do good works, absolutely. But whether we do or not is not an indication of whether we are saved or not. Many people out there do many good works and are very moral, but do not have a clue about Christ, and are trusting in there performance, not a saviour. Jesus addresed this in Mat 7
| Quote: | 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. |
In verse 22, some people are expecting that there "wonderful works" and "prophesying in His name" means they should be in heaven. Be He told them He never knew them.
Now I also have some issues with the predestination/ chosen ideas. I wont get into the details on this post, but if God has always known everything, he could never learn anything new. Therefore he would have had to base his chosing on His foreknowledge of who would accept the free gift of Grace. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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It's really a paradox that we will never understand since both views are true to a point. God choses us first, then our free will/Yeilding is involved after we have been chosen. God doesn't do everything or control everything. People saved or not have choices to make, only God can guide us through his word and through his leading, nothing more. He didn't create robots to obey him at his whim and will.
This is a big misconception among Calvinist that God CONTROLS everything...God is IN control of everything, but that doesn't mean he controls everything. There is a difference. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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YLTYLT good post I totally agree  |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now I also have some issues with the predestination/ chosen ideas. I wont get into the details on this post, but if God has always known everything, he could never learn anything new. Therefore he would have had to base his chosing on His foreknowledge of who would accept the free gift of Grace. |
OK this part I am not so sure.
The word foreknew in the bible that God has, has to do with his LOVE (the word KNOW means intimacy) towards those who are his, not that he saw ahead in the future which he does.
God doesn't need to learn anything...why did you say that? |
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Romans wrote: |
The word foreknew in the bible that God has, has to do with his LOVE (the word KNOW means intimacy) towards those who are his, not that he saw ahead in the future which he does.
God doesn't need to learn anything...why did you say that? |
I mean if God is omniscient, then he is all knowing. And if he is also eternal then he has always known everything. There would never be a point in eternity past that he learned something that he did not previously know.
In my view, if God is eternal them he must exist outside of "time" as we know it. And can therefore look at all points in time and can see all possible as well as actual outcomes. So to us, his knowledge is foreknowledge. But to him, it is just knowing, because time is a nonentity. There is no before or after, because he has always known and will always know all things, or it might be better to say He knows all things.
So he has always known the elect. Not just who they would be, but he actually knows them. He could not have chose them, and at the same time, not known, that they would one day accept Christ as their Saviour. Because, if this were true, then that would mean there would have been a point that he did not know something.
Kind of hard to imagine omniscience, isn't it?
But of course this is just conjecture, with no strong scripture that I am aware of to back it up. So this arguement could very easily be wrong. But this is what I meant by God never needs to learn anything. He already knows it all if he truly is omniscient, which of course he may not be. Scripture definitely does say he is omnipotent. But I only see commentaries by men that say certain verses mean He is Omniscient. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting discussion.
| YLTYLT wrote: |
It says that if you do not perservere it proves you were never been saved to begin with. But this idea could easily missinterpreted as having to do and maintain good works to be saved. |
very good point and an argument against calvinism used a lot. The thing is closer to what Romans said:
| Quote: |
It's really a paradox that we will never understand since both views are true to a point. |
I feel that both calvinist and arminian doctrine are true to a point, but man in all his befuddled wisdom has a tendancy to take truth to an extreme where it becomes nonsense.
| Quote: | | On the other side of that Arminians says that when you sin you can lose you salvation. (but if that were the case we would all lose it everyday.) |
This observation is equally true. Scripture confirms our assurity of salvation and the same predicament you pointed out with calvinism to the extreme also applies here. If 'salvation' can be lost by sinning, then we become legalistic, works-based christians in order to retain our salvation.
The difficulty in both doctrines is that they reach a point where we simply do not know and thus they go off the deep end rather than seek balance.
Is one of the elect who does not persevere in his faith really saved? That's God's call according to my bible. Would it be prudent of me to make claims one way or another? Not at all.
| Quote: | | Now I also have some issues with the predestination/ chosen ideas. I wont get into the details on this post, but if God has always known everything, he could never learn anything new. Therefore he would have had to base his chosing on His foreknowledge of who would accept the free gift of Grace. |
The idea of God having to base His chosing on His knowledge of who would accept Him or reject Him denies Him of His soveriegnty. This is the problem with the whole predestination idea and the opposite idea of 'accepting Christ'.
Scripture is clear that God is sovereign. Nothing He does or doesn't do is predicated on our will, choice, or anything else. Ultimately though, this concept is one I am currently studying as I have no good answers right now.
| Quote: | In my view, if God is eternal them he must exist outside of "time" as we know it. And can therefore look at all points in time and can see all possible as well as actual outcomes. So to us, his knowledge is foreknowledge. But to him, it is just knowing, because time is a nonentity. There is no before or after, because he has always known and will always know all things, or it might be better to say He knows all things.
So he has always known the elect. Not just who they would be, but he actually knows them. He could not have chose them, and at the same time, not known, that they would one day accept Christ as their Saviour. Because, if this were true, then that would mean there would have been a point that he did not know something. |
I, hesitatingly, completely agree (unless I learn something new which tells me this idea is wrong). God knows, our linear existence causes us to describe this as foreknowledge, which in my opinion causes much of the bickering about these opposing doctrines.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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YLTYLT OK I did my best to understand what you said. I believe I agree with most of or that which I did understand.
I still think the word FOREKNEW is the foreknowing of his love for us....for those God foreknew (loved as his own, his children) he also predestined (choose/elected) |
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Romans
Goldfish
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I feel that both calvinist and arminian doctrine are true to a point, but man in all his befuddled wisdom has a tendancy to take truth to an extreme where it becomes nonsense. |
This I agree.
I will say that I know you can know you are saved even when we don't live the way we should. In my 23 years of being saved and my husbands 40 years. NEITHER of us no matter what we have done or how we have lived not perfect that is for sure have NEVER doubted our salvation. 1 John 5:13 says "for these things have I written unto you that you may KNOW you have eternal life"
Doing good works or living by God's word and trying to live HOLY lives, never, ever changes our standing and security with God....the only thing it changes is our walk with God and walk with others. it is a RELATIONSHIP issue. How we live effects our relationships not our position. For we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and placed in the Heavenly realms at the moment of salvation....Romans says.
When asked what is the GREATEST commandment of them all Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and the 2nd is like it love your neighbor as yourself" in doing these you FULFILL all the commandments."
Which means if one is walking by the spirit he will obey God and will love him and others....and if he doesn't the only effected is his communication with God and Glorifying God in his life.
Not a good place to be....yet still saved. |
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Luke 7:35
House Cat
Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 152
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: I think I will stay out of this debate |
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I will stay out of this one for now
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Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I will stay out of this one for now |
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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YLTYLT
Ferret
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Romans wrote: | YLTYLT OK I did my best to understand what you said. I believe I agree with most of or that which I did understand.
I still think the word FOREKNEW is the foreknowing of his love for us....for those God foreknew (loved as his own, his children) he also predestined (choose/elected) |
Oh and I definitely agree that this is can mean that he loved us before we existed in the temporal. And I dio not doubt that this is true.
But the "fore" part of foreknowedge is in relation to us in the temporal. It was be"fore" we existsed. The "Fore" part does not apply to Him. Because there was never a point in time that he did not love us. God never changes.
But I also use this verse as support for the idea that he chose us based on his forknowledge.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
We are elect because of His foreknowledge. |
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JB
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 750
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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YLTYLT
Foreknowledge:
This word is a translation of the noun prognosin which is used only twice in the New Testament. Its verb form proginoskos, is used five times.
In Acts 26:5 and 2nd Peter 3:17 we have a classical Greek meaning of the verb , which is previous knowledge.
But in Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:2 the meaning is in the noun form, and in Romans (8:29) (11:2) and 1st Peter 1:20, the meaning is in the verb form and goes beyond the classical meaning of the possession of previous knowledge, and refers to that which the A.V. cites in 1 Peter 1:20 foreordination.
The first time the noun form prognosisn is found is in Acts 2:23 where it is used in the clause, Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.
Here is where we can connect some Greek dots.
The Word “counsel” and “foreknowledge” are in a Greek construction which makes both words refer here to the same act, presenting that act in it's two aspects. The content of meaning in the word foreknowledge, here is made clear by the words, “determinate counsel”.
Therefore the word foreknowledge here and the four other places (foreknew or foreknowledge) cannot mean previous knowledge.
The Greek word counsel (boule) refers to the interchange of opinions , a mutual advising, the exchanging of deliberative judgment. This must have taken place in God's counsel.
The word determinate is the translation of horismenei, a perfect participle which refers to a past act of putting limits upon something with the present result that some certain thing has been appointed or decreed.
The word foreknowledge therefore refers to that counsel of God in which after deliberative judgment, the Lord Jesus was to be delivered into human hands to be crucified.
I hope this helps in your discussion of foreknowledge.
JB |
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