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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: I posted this one earlier and it got lost... |
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Every secular government on earth today claims to operate in the name of the people, which we know they do not. I believe that it is time that God's people learn to use these false claims to our advantage, to take what is rightfully ours.
Examine the structure of institutions and offices established by these false regimes, and you will see that there only true authority is the might of arms. They have no moral authority, and they do not have the voice of the people behind them, but the people live in fear so they do not speak out. This is the reality around the world today.
Because those who hold office have stolen their positions, their rulings are not valid, because they are pretenders to the "thrones" that they occupy. In fact, only God's people are the true and rightful law-givers. The laws that are called "laws" today are by and large false, and the enforcement that is called "law enforcement" is as well. Judges hand down verdicts without understanding anything that is going on, just because of their greed.
There is only one true law, and that is the word of God, and the word of God is spoken only by those who know Him, or by those who have been taught by those who know Him. The true church is the only civil authority in the world today. Check the documents and constitutions of any established regime and you'll see that it is so.
What is needed today is only one thing: that we who know God rise up and take our rightful positions as rulers in truth. The reason why injustice is so widespread is that the people who are ruling the world don't know that the world is in their care. They have been taught to think that the system runs itself, and in fact because of this false teaching they continue, by and large, to let the system run itself. So there is chaos. But all we have to do is take a stand, and take up our rightful position.
Don't be afraid to run the world, and don't be afraid of the bluster of the politicians and their stooges, the officers who pretend to be the representatives of true order. These are renegade criminals, and nothing more. They are impostors.
A lot of impostors speaking from pulpits, and the media as well. You can know them by what they say, if you are able to discern the truth. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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How does this square with what Paul wrote in Romans 13:1, "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authoritites. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God"?
I'm under the impression that the saints will not reign on the earth until "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ" (Rev. 11:15) That will not occur until the seventh trumpet sounds - a yet future event. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authoritites. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. |
That's exactly what I'm saying. But regimes and officers that are respected by the world and media are false, and are disobedient to civil authority. They establish harmful policies, which are unlawful in God's mind, and according to human law. But no-one stands in their way. This is the problem that I am addressing.
| Quote: | | I'm under the impression that the saints will not reign on the earth until "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ" (Rev. 11:15) That will not occur until the seventh trumpet sounds - a yet future event. |
Whether or not that interpretation is correct, and whether or not that event of the seventh trumpet has yet been fulfilled is a matter of interpretation. But be that as it may, none can deny this fact: The kingdom of the world can only become the kingdom of our Lord when we take charge.
What I'm talking about is simple obedience, that's all. A human being is supposed to stand for truth. |
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Mattathias
King Kong
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 2040
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | Whether or not that interpretation is correct, and whether or not that event of the seventh trumpet has yet been fulfilled is a matter of interpretation. |
I can go along with that.
| Quote: | | But be that as it may, none can deny this fact: The kingdom of the world can only become the kingdom of our Lord when we take charge. |
That's a very good point. But doesn't that make it awfully important for us to know whether or not Jesus has taken charge and begun to reign? Shouldn't he take charge before we do? Will we reign over the kingdom of the world before he does?
| Quote: | | A human being is supposed to stand for truth. |
That's true. But Paul's instruction seems to be that believers must be obedient to whatever government we happen to live under in this present evil age, unless that government asks us to do something that would require us to disobey God or His Messiah. |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the response. You said: | Quote: | | Doesn't that make it awfully important for us to know whether or not Jesus has taken charge and begun to reign? Shouldn't he take charge before we do? Will we reign over the kingdom of the world before he does? |
You seem to be implicitly creating a distinction here between Jesus' reign and our own. There is none. Jesus reign is the same as our own, so there is no question of before, after, or waiting for something to happen. When you realize the truth of Jesus' reign is the moment that you establish his reign through your own authority, in Him. There is no point of division at all.
You said: | Quote: | | Paul's instruction seems to be that believers must be obedient to whatever government we happen to live under in this present evil age, unless that government asks us to do something that would require us to disobey God or His Messiah. |
That's exactly my point. A man is supposed to stand for truth, and for natural law, order, justice, peace, and all that good stuff. We only go along with any authority when it is reconcilable with God's word and direction in our lives, and for the world.
The false system, which opposes God, is based on the concept of State, and Citizen, neither of which exists in nature. Christian teachers today usually teach that it is correct to think in these false terms, and they use the quotes you have mentioned to justify this destructive teaching. In fact, we are to think in God's terms, or in other words in terms of nature, which God has established - in terms of the truth of reality. The State has never existed, but God has created nature, along with natural law and order. We are not citizens, we are denizens. This world belongs to us - the earth and the fullness thereof are man's.
When you realize (truly realize) this fact, then you become a ruler along with Christ, and you overcome the lies of the devil who establishes Babylon's false system of thinking, which is taught in the churches today. |
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Ha lelu Yah'
Little Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Actions speak louder than words |
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I realize that what follows is longer than most replies but my point is not: As a footstep follower of Jesus Christ I believe I should do exactly what he did. Therefore, whatever course of action you say I should follow or even that you say you prefer to follow for yourself, please be so kind as to show me first where Jesus did it or said it. Please, if at all possible, show it to me using Jesus’ words and actions for that is who I follow and with whom I have a relationship.
So, what do you think about injecting religion into politics or vise versa, is that a good idea? When the question is phrased in those straight forward terms perhaps most would answer, “No, it isn’t a good idea.” Yet it seems to be that almost no one was much concerned when Alan Keyes and Barack Obama did exactly that in their past election run for the Senate when they made such an issue of how Jesus might vote. These things concern me and in my mind these situations give rise to this question: Really, what would Jesus do?
One very important thing was missing from all the past news reports regarding how Jesus might have voted—quotes from Jesus expressing his views. Even though it is true that Jesus is not in the habit of granting interviews to news journalists and political pundits that does not mean we cannot get to know his answer for we do have a trustworthy archive of his recorded words and reported actions from which we can draw solid conclusions.
Due to Bible prophecies specifying the first century as the time for the Messiah to appear and as the Jews observed or heard reports of the many miraculous ‘signs’ Jesus was performing and, also, because of their own increasingly strong nationalistic aspirations arising out of their resentment of Rome’s oppressive rule, the Jews were hoping for, no, even more than that, they were fully expecting the Messiah/Jesus to become their political, national ‘Deliverer.’ Acting in line with their strong desires/expectations they went so far as to conspire to make him their king. This report is archived at John 6:14, 15: “So, when the people saw the [miraculous] sign that Jesus had performed [i.e., the feeding of the large crowd with such a small amount of food], they said, “Truly, this is the prophet who was to come into the world.” [Note: This was probably a reference to the promise made in Deut. 18:15-19]. So, [when] Jesus knew that the people were about to come and forcibly take Him and make Him [their] king, He left there again and went to the high plateau [to be] alone [i.e., to pray. See Mark 6:46].” (Brackets, italics, etc are all from An Understandable Version–NT.) Jesus’ taking actions to avoid this nationalistic political entanglement should speak volumes to us who claim to be his footstep followers. Even though God had it recorded in the Bible there will be some that will claim that this was an anomaly, just a single, isolated incident, with no meaning for us today, but is that so? Let’s see.
Political overtones and conspiracies were definite factors in other incidents God had recorded in the Bible as well. We can find a report of one starting at Matthew 22:15: “The Pharisees went off and made a plan to trap Jesus with questions. Then they sent to him some of their disciples and some members of Herod's [political] party. "Teacher," they said, "we know that you tell the truth. You teach the truth about God's will for people, without worrying about what others think, because you pay no attention to anyone's status. Tell us, then, what do you think? Is it against our Law to pay taxes to the Roman Emperor, or not?" Jesus, however, was aware of their evil plan, and so he said, “"You hypocrites! Why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin for paying the tax!" They brought him the coin, and he asked them, "Whose face and name are these?" "The Emperor's," they answered. So Jesus said to them, "Well, then, pay to the Emperor what belongs to the Emperor, and pay to God what belongs to God." When they heard this, they were amazed; and they left him and went away.” Just as before Jesus deftly avoids being pulled into this widely debated nationalistic political dispute as well as their carefully set trap by refusing to take sides on the issue, but why is that? We can understand why by investigating his very first and we can learn how we should act from his very last opportunity to become involved with national and international politics. As footstep followers we should be particularly interested in his words, instructions and actions.
All the opportunities Jesus had to meddle in national and international politics pale into insignificance when compared to the first and foremost opportunity he had to do so. Note the details of that incident as reported at Luke 4:5-8: “For the second test he led him up and spread out all the countries of the earth on display at once. 6 Then the Devil said, “I will give you the right to rule over all these countries. They're yours in all their splendor to serve your pleasure. I'm in charge of them all and can turn them over to whomever I wish. 7 Worship me and they're yours, the whole works." 8 Jesus refused, again backing his refusal with Deuteronomy: "Worship the Lord your God and only the Lord your God. Serve him with absolute single-heartedness." Just think of all the “good” Jesus could have accomplished if he had accepted Satan’s offer “to rule over” and be “in charge of” all the kingdoms/nations/countries of this world and the thousands of years and billions of lives that would have been saved . . . NOT! This would have involved his rejecting his primary allegiance, God’s kingdom and sovereignty, and instead the pledging of his allegiance to Satan, the “ruler of the world.” Again, Satan’s rulership, THEN AND NOW, includes ALL political organizations (see John 14:30; Daniel 7:6-7, 23-24; Revelation 17:11-12; Revelation 12:9; Revelation 13:2). There is no mistaking it. Jesus firmly rejected that opportunity, that course of action, including the idea of using or working within Satan’s world or system, including all its political organizations, as a means to accomplish God’s will or in any effort to improve or legitimize in some way Satan’s holdings. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Again we see Jesus set the pattern for us—“absolute single-hearted” allegiance to God and to His rule, His government.
Is there any part of Jesus’ pattern of behavior that does not apply to or is not to be closely followed by someone wanting to be his follower and to be something more than just a “Christian” in name only? Please consider this then: if ever there were something worth fighting for in this world it was embodied in Jesus, was it not? So did Jesus allow his followers to become involved in physically fighting for him or his ideals? Absolutely not! (Matthew 26:52 compare Revelation 13:10) Why not? Jesus again gives us the answer and the reason why within an answer given to Pilate found at John 18:36 which was the last opportunity Jesus had to advocate or prohibit the mixing of religion and worldy politics so pay careful attention to what he says: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this [Satan’s] world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (See John 17:14,16; James 1:27; 4:4 and 1 John 5:19). Do you see the consistent pattern Jesus set and the reason why? Who really are footstep followers of Jesus? Actions speak louder than words!
Can it truly be said that the politicians, their partisans or any other ‘leaders’ of this world and their followers are actually obeying Jesus’ commands such as those found at Luke 6:27-31? “This is what I say to all who will listen to me: Love your enemies, and be good to everyone who hates you. Ask God to bless anyone who curses you, and pray for everyone who is cruel to you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, don't stop that person from slapping you on the other cheek. If someone wants to take your coat, don't try to keep back your shirt. Give to everyone who asks and don't ask people to return what they have taken from you. Treat others just as you want to be treated.” There is no denying that the vast majority of those that claim to be Christian ignore Jesus’ clear command. Certainly if people and governments obeyed Jesus’ commands the world would be a much better place in which to live and there would be no war, “holy”, justifiable, defensive, preemptive or otherwise. So, really, what would Jesus do? Isn’t the reason for asking WWJD so that we today can do the right thing? What do you now say regarding involvement in the politics of this world controlled by Satan? Jesus himself clearly, consistently provided us his answer by his actions and also in his own words. Are you a footstep follower of Jesus?
As we contemplate the things going on around us involving both religion and politics it becomes obvious that the overwhelming majority of those things are a blatant ignoring of Jesus’ example and commands as well as of God’s clear instructions to his “people” that are contained in these prophecies that have their fulfillment in our day:
Isaiah 2:2-4, LITV: “And it shall be in the last days, the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it. (3) And many people shall go and say, Come and let us go up to the mount of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach from His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion the Law will go forth, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. (4) And He shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, nor shall they learn war any more.”
Micah 4:1-5, LITV: “But it shall be in the end of the days, the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established on the top of the mountains; and it shall be lifted up from the hills; and peoples shall flow on it. (2) And many nations shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach us from His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For the Law shall go forth out of Zion, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. (3) And He shall judge between many peoples, and will decide for strong nations afar off. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, nor shall they learn war still. (4) But they shall each one sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and there shall be no trembling. For the mouth of Jehovah of Hosts has spoken. (5) For all the peoples walk, each one in the name of his god; but we will walk in the name of Jehovah our God forever and ever.”
Every religion teaching that it is OK to engage in physical violence and carnal warfare is disobeying the God of love and also disobeying the clear commands of His son, the Prince of Peace. Please read Jesus warning to those that claim to be his followers at Matthew 7:21-23 (see the addendum). As you can see so-called ‘good deeds’ don’t necessarily count for much but also in those verses Jesus tells us for sure what does count. The above scriptures are part of God’s, of the Father’s, will and commandments.
Please can you tell me: Who is Jesus’ Father? What is His name? (Matthew 6:9; Acts 15:14, see the addendum; 1 Corinthians 8:6)
I realize that the above is longer than most replies but my point is not: As a footstep follower of Jesus Christ I believe I should do exactly what he did, as detailed above. Therefore, whatever course of action you say I should follow or that you say you prefer to follow for yourself, please be so kind as to show me first where Jesus did it or said it. Please, if at all possible, show it to me using Jesus’ words and actions for that is who I follow and with whom I have a relationship. Let me conclude by again restating an old adage: “Actions speak louder than words.”
Addendum:
A prime example of what I am talking about:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166598,00.html
http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006
http://mediamatters.org/items/200508230007
Matthew 7:21-23 from various translations:
(AMP) Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name? 23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My [and God’s] commands].
(AUV-NT) “Not every person who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but [only] that person who does what my Father in heaven requires. 22 Many persons will say to me on the [judgment] day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by [the authority of] your name, and drive out evil spirits and perform many powerful [supernatural] deeds by your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never acknowledged you [as my people]; go away from me, you people who have done sinful things.’
(CEV) Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in. 22 On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, "We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles." 23 But I will tell them, "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!"
Act 15:14 from various translations:
(AMP) Simeon [Peter] has rehearsed how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people [to bear and honor] His name.
(GW) Simon has explained how God first showed his concern by taking from non-Jewish people those who would honor his name.
(WE) Simeon has told us how God came the first time to the people who are not Jews. God chose some of them to belong to him and be his people.
(WNT) Symeon has related how God first looked graciously on the Gentiles to take from among them a People to be called by His name.
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By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another. (Proverbs 27:17) |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Two points in Jesus life and teachings:
1) The situation in the temple, where He turned over some tables and chased some men out of there with a whip made out of rope.
2) When He told the disciples to start walking with a sword (2 among them was enough).
Not every situation is the same. Although God's word is eternal and unchanging, things change in the way the world is, and each situation needs to be evaluated with understanding of the principles involved.
How would you explain these two events? Clearly, on the surface they seem to contradict Jesus' position of turning the other cheek, and blessing those who curse you. There must be something about those situations that make them different. What is it?
Now today what do we do. I have said: | Virbate wrote: | Every secular government on earth today claims to operate in the name of the people, which we know they do not. I believe that it is time that God's people learn to use these false claims to our advantage, to take what is rightfully ours.
Examine the structure of institutions and offices established by these false regimes, and you will see that there only true authority is the might of arms. They have no moral authority, and they do not have the voice of the people behind them, but the people live in fear so they do not speak out. This is the reality around the world today.
Because those who hold office have stolen their positions, their rulings are not valid, because they are pretenders to the "thrones" that they occupy. In fact, only God's people are the true and rightful law-givers. The laws that are called "laws" today are by and large false, and the enforcement that is called "law enforcement" is as well. Judges hand down verdicts without understanding anything that is going on, just because of their greed.
There is only one true law, and that is the word of God, and the word of God is spoken only by those who know Him, or by those who have been taught by those who know Him. The true church is the only civil authority in the world today. Check the documents and constitutions of any established regime and you'll see that it is so. |
How do you feel Jesus would feel about this, towards the end of June, 2008? |
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Ha lelu Yah'
Little Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Mmmmmmmmyeowoooooooooooo |
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| Virbate wrote: | | 1) The situation in the temple, where He turned over some tables and chased some men out of there with a whip made out of rope. |
This was an act of worship performed in the temple itself and was prophetic as well as in fulfillment of prophecy. If you so choose you can believe that this act of righteous indignation and jealously justifies the polluting of pure worship by choosing to mix it with worldly politics controlled by Satan but you need to explain it better before I can see the connection. At this point, to me, it appears to be grasping at straws.
| Virbate wrote: | | 2) When He told the disciples to start walking with a sword (2 among them was enough). |
Jesus’ own words tell us what is going on and why, note: | Quote: | | He also said to them: “When I sent you forth without purse and food pouch and sandals, you did not want for anything, did you?” They said: “No!” Then he said to them: “But now let the one that has a purse take it up, likewise also a food pouch; and let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one. For I tell you that this which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, ‘And he was reckoned with lawless ones.’ For that which concerns me is having an accomplishment.” Then they said: “Lord, look! here are two swords.” He said to them: “It is enough.” (Luke 22:35-38) |
There are at least a couple of things going on here. Jesus himself tells us “For I tell you that this which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, ‘And he was reckoned with lawless ones.’ For that which concerns me is having an accomplishment.”” So he is preparing himself and his followers for what is to shortly follow (his death) and also for what will follow that: | Quote: | | Then Jesus said to them: “All of you will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about.’ But after I have been raised up, I will go ahead of you into Gal´i•lee.” (Matthew 26:31-32) |
Unlike their other trips to Galilee when he sent them “forth without purse and food pouch and sandals” he now instructs them to procure those items and a sword. When it is pointed out that there are two swords available he says: “It is enough.” If he were telling them to become an army or to get swords for protection and self-preservation why is it that only two swords were enough? It might to you but to me that does not make sense. No, rather, he was telling them to prepare for something they had not yet grasped: his death and the effect it was to have on them (only panicked sheep scatter) and that they would, so to speak, be on the lamb and running scared as they traveled to Galilee and a purse, food pouch and even a sword would be a necessary tool, but not as an offensive weapon or even as a defensive one, to have with them as they traveled on the lamb avoiding people and towns.
There is also another reason Jesus wanted to have a sword available among his followers on that night—in order to demonstrate clearly how they were to react in similar situations in their future. To clearly show them that, though they would come into circumstances that could easily provoke them to feel the need for armed resistance, he did not intend them to resort to the sword. Thus, when Peter did react and try to put up armed resistance, lopping off the ear of Malchus, Jesus ordered him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matthew 26:51-52; John 18:10-11 compare to Matthew 20:22-23: “Jesus said in answer: “You men do not know what you are asking for. Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.””)
How do we know for sure that is what Jesus was demonstrating and that is what his words to Peter meant? We know it for sure because later that day Jesus plainly stated to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source” (John 18:36). If ever there were something worth fighting for was it not that for which Peter was ready to fight? Yet Jesus did not allow it because Jesus’, at that point, yet to come kingdom could not be established by human efforts. As we see, having the swords with them permitted Jesus to teach another vital lesson—one opposite to what you imply.
Please answer this question for me: if Jesus was teaching the lesson you seem to be indicating, that it is alright to resort to violence, then why did he undo the damage that he intended, according to your thinking, Peter to inflict on Malchus and instead healed the injured man? Do you really believe that Jesus was here teaching that his followers should be warmongers or terrorists or, at the very least, reactionary/liberal activists?
At Romans 12:17-21 we read: “Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good”? Why did Paul, under inspiration, admonish the above if Jesus taught otherwise at Matthew 26:51 and Luke 22:36? Wouldn’t it be fair to say the either Paul was wrong or you are mistaken in your understanding and belief? Can you and Paul both be right? I’m sorry but I just don’t see how. Please explain to me how that can be.
Paul also said: “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´li•al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”” (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
In addition to Paul’s word we have those of James: “The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.” (James 1:27) Also: “Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (James 4:4)
| Virbate wrote: | | Now today what do we do. |
What color is your hair anyway? How in the world is it that you need to ask me that question? | Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | | So, really, what would Jesus do? Isn’t the reason for asking WWJD so that we today can do the right thing? What do you now say regarding involvement in the politics of this world controlled by Satan? Jesus himself clearly, consistently provided us his answer by his actions and also in his own words. Are you a footstep follower of Jesus? . . . I realize that the above is longer than most replies but my point is not: As a footstep follower of Jesus Christ I believe I should do exactly what he did, as detailed above. Therefore, whatever course of action you say I should follow or that you say you prefer to follow for yourself, please be so kind as to show me first where Jesus did it or said it. Please, if at all possible, show it to me using Jesus’ words and actions for that is who I follow and with whom I have a relationship. Let me conclude by again restating an old adage: “Actions speak louder than words.” |
_________________
By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another. (Proverbs 27:17) |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Mmmmmmmmyeowoooooooooooo |
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| Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | | 1) The situation in the temple, where He turned over some tables and chased some men out of there with a whip made out of rope. |
This was an act of worship performed in the temple itself and was prophetic as well as in fulfillment of prophecy. If you so choose you can believe that this act of righteous indignation and jealously justifies the polluting of pure worship by choosing to mix it with worldly politics controlled by Satan but you need to explain it better before I can see the connection. |
Well the truth is that the believer's whole body is the temple of God. This is why I teach that nature is the key focus in order to understand God's word. I have never suggested mixing with worldly politics, but I have suggested taking up our power. We should be righteously indignant at the way we are being abused under the current system, and we must take a stand, using every tool that is available, but without mixing with Babylon.
| Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | If he were telling them to become an army or to get swords for protection and self-preservation why is it that only two swords were enough? It might to you but to me that does not make sense. No, rather, he was telling them to prepare for something they had not yet grasped: his death and the effect it was to have on them (only panicked sheep scatter) and that they would, so to speak, be on the lamb and running scared as they traveled to Galilee and a purse, food pouch and even a sword would be a necessary tool, but not as an offensive weapon or even as a defensive one, to have with them as they traveled on the lamb avoiding people and towns.
There is also another reason Jesus wanted to have a sword available among his followers on that night—in order to demonstrate clearly how they were to react in similar situations in their future. To clearly show them that, though they would come into circumstances that could easily provoke them to feel the need for armed resistance, he did not intend them to resort to the sword. Thus, when Peter did react and try to put up armed resistance, lopping off the ear of Malchus, Jesus ordered him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”
How do we know for sure that is what Jesus was demonstrating and that is what his words to Peter meant? We know it for sure because later that day Jesus plainly stated to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source” (John 18:36). If ever there were something worth fighting for was it not that for which Peter was ready to fight? |
You have misunderstood me. I do not suggest that we "take up arms" against Babylon, but simply that we defend our own natural, God given rights. It takes discernment to know when to fight and when to hold back, as any warrior knows. Peter cut the guy's ear off in an attempt to overthrow Babylon by military might. This is not the Way. There is a time for fighting, but that was not it.
The fact is that Babylon is not a military organization, but it is a spiritual system. Therefore, as Paul explains we are fighting a spiritual battle. A spiritual battle is not of this world, but it does make use of systems that exist in the world. Peter's thinking at that time was of this world, and therefore incorrect. This does not mean that it is always wrong to use a sword, but just that Babylon is not a military organization. We need to clear up exactly where Babylon starts and nature (truth/God's word) ends. This is where you seem to be missing me.
In fact I only suggest the use of a sword in self defense, and when the aggressor is acting in defiance of the established authorities of Babylon. That soldier was acting on orders, and Peter had no right to do what he did.
So I have explained; I hope you see that you misinterpreted what I was saying. If not I can explain more. I understand that God's kingdom is not of this world, and I did not suggest that it is. I do not suggest "touching any unclean thing".
I have an issue with your claim that Jesus meant the sword to be a tool, but not an offensive or defensive weapon. What kind of tool then? Surely a sword is a tool for fighting, and this would have been understood as the context of Jesus' command to obtain swords? You ask why two swords are enough... well it's because they are not meant to be an army. As I have stated, we are not fighting a military organization. Two swords cannot stand against an army, but they represent a show of strength to would be assailants who are not part of any established political organization. Did you think I was advocating a shoot out with cops?!!! Not at all. But if someone is attacking you, unilaterally without the jurisdiction of an established polity, then it is expedient that you dispatch him swiftly. As a side note, in America that is even part of the constitution, the right to bear arms. |
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Ha lelu Yah'
Little Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | I have never suggested mixing with worldly politics |
REALLY?! Then why start this thread this way: | Virbate wrote: | | Every secular government on earth today claims to operate in the name of the people, which we know they do not. I believe that it is time that God's people learn to use these false claims to our advantage, to take what is rightfully ours. |
“Rights” are a political construct. Even though some claim them to be “God-given” there is no mention of them in the Bible. Please be so kind as to show me anywhere, anytime in the Bible where freedom of religion was OK with God. Please be so kind as to show me anywhere, anytime in the Bible where freedom of actions, as it is practiced today, was approved by God. It just ain’t so. The rights and freedoms of this world are constructed by Satan and the majority who follow him and are, for the most part, polar opposites to the freedom found in the Bible, isn’t that so?
If you are not advocating some sort of political action then why use the words you chose to use? Please explain the logic of what you are saying along with supplying the requested examples of Jesus saying and/or doing it and also any Scriptural support. Also, please explain just how is it that you think we can accomplish this: | Virbate wrote: | | Don't be afraid to run the world |
And also this: | Virbate wrote: | | using every tool that is available |
Those statements certainly sound to me as if you are advocating some sort of mixing with and the using of worldly politics and its tools. And, BTW, is that not what we saw an example of for the last 8 years with very sad and unintended consequences?
But even of more importance to me as a reason to reject what you advocate than the dizzying nature to your of your logic is that it flies in the face of what Jesus said and did. Here is what you advocate:
| Virbate wrote: | | take what is rightfully ours. |
| Virbate wrote: | | What is needed today is only one thing: that we who know God rise up and take our rightful positions as rulers in truth. |
Here is what Jesus said we should do: | Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | | Can it truly be said that the politicians, their partisans or any other ‘leaders’ of this world and their followers are actually obeying Jesus’ commands such as those found at Luke 6:27-31? “This is what I say to all who will listen to me: Love your enemies, and be good to everyone who hates you. Ask God to bless anyone who curses you, and pray for everyone who is cruel to you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, don't stop that person from slapping you on the other cheek. If someone wants to take your coat, don't try to keep back your shirt. Give to everyone who asks and don't ask people to return what they have taken from you. Treat others just as you want to be treated.” |
What you say we should do sounds just the opposite of what Jesus said we should do, isn’t that so? It very much sounds as if you are saying that we should do exactly what Jesus refused to do and take Satan’s newly modified seemingly innocuous offer and become involved in trying to improve the conditions of Satan’s world. That is not what Jesus did when he had the chance, isn’t that true?
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By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another. (Proverbs 27:17) |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | | I have never suggested mixing with worldly politics |
REALLY?! Then why start this thread this way: | Virbate wrote: | | Every secular government on earth today claims to operate in the name of the people, which we know they do not. I believe that it is time that God's people learn to use these false claims to our advantage, to take what is rightfully ours. |
“Rights” are a political construct. Even though some claim them to be “God-given” there is no mention of them in the Bible. Please be so kind as to show me anywhere, anytime in the Bible where freedom of religion was OK with God. Please be so kind as to show me anywhere, anytime in the Bible where freedom of actions, as it is practiced today, was approved by God. It just ain’t so. The rights and freedoms of this world are constructed by Satan and the majority who follow him and are, for the most part, polar opposites to the freedom found in the Bible, isn’t that so? |
Once I ate a type of fruit for the first time, and it tasted terrible because it was rotten. After that, for years I carried the belief that this type of fruit always tasted bad. But gradually over time I remembered that it may just be the case of one bad fruit. So I tried again, and now I like that fruit. It seems that you are not making a clear distinction between politics in general and the type of false politics that you can see on TV or the newspaper. So let's try to clear up that distinction. Politics generally means "pertaining to the function and positions in government". Therefore, Jesus is a politician, as are His disciples. For this reason Jesus started His ministry, which is actually a political campaign, to establish God's government in the earth. Note He instructed His disciples to "Go out into all the world, preaching the good news..."
| Quote: | | Romans 13:1-3 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. |
Paul is saying here that the rulers prohibit bad works, and support good works, which is exactly what God wants. Specifically let us just consider a few commands of God. Religious freedom as a natural right is shown here:
| Quote: | | John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him. |
Really, the Bible is a book all about rights. The law is made to establish natural rights, once people follow it - love God, love your neighbor, respect God's name, don't murder, lie, steal, covet, commit adultery, honor your parents and respect the sabbath. This is a principle, based on the first two of these, of natural rights and justice. That's why it's called a Law. That's why God's Way is called a Kingdom, or a Government - these are political constructs. So what this means is that when you read your Bible, every time it speaks of God's kingdom, government and law, which is basically always, it is talking about politics, and rights.
If you read my words to be trying to encourage Christians to follow a worldly political construct, of course they will become nonsensical, since the world and the Way are opposed. However the whole point of the Way is to be a polity (system of government). The difference is that God's government is natural, and powerful, and true, and free. So this is the true definition of rights, law and order. But of course lies are always designed to mimic the appearance of truth - hence we have the Babylonian system, which mimics God's system, but for the purpose of oppression. |
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Ha lelu Yah'
Little Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Virbate,
You seem to be choosing deliberately nonconventional and even discombobulating language. That is very off-putting. What a waste of time and effort!! | Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | | Therefore, whatever course of action you say I should follow or that you say you prefer to follow for yourself, please be so kind as to show me first where Jesus did it or said it. Please, if at all possible, show it to me using Jesus’ words and actions for that is who I follow and with whom I have a relationship. |
Sadly I doubt that will ever happen. If you ever do get around to doing so, maybe then we can talk. Anything less will be a waste of time and effort.
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By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another. (Proverbs 27:17) |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | Virbate,
You seem to be choosing deliberately nonconventional and even discombobulating language. That is very off-putting. What a waste of time and effort!! | Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | | Therefore, whatever course of action you say I should follow or that you say you prefer to follow for yourself, please be so kind as to show me first where Jesus did it or said it. Please, if at all possible, show it to me using Jesus’ words and actions for that is who I follow and with whom I have a relationship. |
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I want to show you something that Jesus said: "It is necessary to be born again." John 3. Note that Nicodemus did not write Jesus off for this and say, "you are talking nonsense so I reject you". Instead Nicodemus asked Him what He meant by that statement. He said: "What do you mean by being 'born again'. I know you don't mean it in the conventional way." So why are you put off when I do the same thing that Jesus did, using words in a new way?
Jesus ministry was about establishing a new convention, so it is very wrong to try holding oneself to established convention of language. In fact, it is vital that we no longer speak and act according to the conventions of the false system. For this reason, I find it expedient, and necessary to use words in an unconventional way, in order to establish the convention of God's word.
Of course, at the same time as establishing a new convention, I must respect the way that people think, so as not to be an offense. Here is Jesus, supporting my reasoning for being respectful in this way: | Quote: | | Matthew 17:27 However, we don’t want to offend them, so go down to the lake and throw in a line. Open the mouth of the first fish you catch, and you will find a large silver coin. Take it and pay the tax for both of us. |
So for this reason I establish the new convention while still working with terms that are familiar, according to previous convention. So let us consider what has been so off putting to you. Is it because I said that Jesus' ministry is political in nature, since it has to do with leading men, and establishing a kingdom, which is a form of government? I know that this is not what people usually mean when they talk about politics, but it shouldn't be so strange as to put you off, or be offensive. I'm just using words like Jesus did, in a new way, but in terms to which the listener can relate - for example, "you must be born again".
Here are some definitions from Webster's: | Quote: | | Politics - of, or relating to government or the conduct of government. Politician - one versed in the art or science of government. Government - the act or process of governing. Govern - to exercise continuous sovereign authority over. |
Which of these offends you when I say it pertains to Jesus and God's Kingdom?
What has happened is that we grew up in a world where the true King is not popularly respected as king. Instead, false leaders come up, using lies to deceive, and they have stolen away the natural, God-given principle of politics. Now should we renounce politics altogether? Of course not! We should renounce false political systems, and false leaders, and we should establish God's government in our lives. This is the purpose of what I have been teaching here. |
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Ha lelu Yah'
Little Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Virbate wrote: | | Jesus ministry was about establishing a new convention, . . . So why are you put off when I do the same thing that Jesus did, using words in a new way? |
Jesus did establish something new but that was nearly 2000 years ago. And what he established is not now new nor is it in need of reestablishment or of reinvention by you or anyone else of that matter. The fact of the matter is that if it were not for all the miracles and signs performed by Jesus no doubt Nicodemus would have said, "You are talking nonsense so I reject you." You on the other hand do not have my respect because you have not already shown yourself to me to be a miracle worker as Jesus had to Nicodemus.
| Virbate wrote: | | so it is very wrong to try holding oneself to established convention of language. |
That is not so!! Especially if your intention is to have the greatest number of people come to the clearest possible understanding of what you are saying. Again let me repeat it: | Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | | You seem to be choosing deliberately nonconventional and even discombobulating language. That is very off-putting. What a waste of time and effort!! |
| Virbate wrote: | | in order to establish the convention of God's word. |
That job belongs to The Word or Logos and he performed it perfectly nearly 2000 years ago. That also is the reason that Bible writing came to an end nearly 1900 years ago. Do you really expect me to believe that you can say it better than Jesus did or better than it is already said in God’s Word the Bible? What audacity! What insolence!
That may not be your conscious intention but when you present yourself to me as the establisher of a new convention with new definitions and new meanings and without the benefit of any miracles or any type of Scriptural proof and only your word for it . . . well, "You are talking nonsense so I reject you."
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By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another. (Proverbs 27:17) |
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Virbate
Rattlesnake
Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Ha lelu Yah' wrote: | | Virbate wrote: | | Jesus ministry was about establishing a new convention, . . . So why are you put off when I do the same thing that Jesus did, using words in a new way? |
Jesus did establish something new but that was nearly 2000 years ago. And what he established is not now new nor is it in need of reestablishment or of reinvention by you or anyone else of that matter. The fact of the matter is that if it were not for all the miracles and signs performed by Jesus no doubt Nicodemus would have said, "You are talking nonsense so I reject you." You on the other hand do not have my respect because you have not already shown yourself to me to be a miracle worker as Jesus had to Nicodemus.
That may not be your conscious intention but when you present yourself to me as the establisher of a new convention with new definitions and new meanings and without the benefit of any miracles or any type of Scriptural proof and only your word for it . . . well, "You are talking nonsense so I reject you." |
I don't mean to say that I on my own, unilaterally hope to improve on what Christ has established. I am saying what He has taught me, which is the knowledge to fulfill His works. Since I have agreed to your condition of saying what I say by referring to the Bible, should you still require me to perform miracles?
Jesus in not reinventing His kingdom, or reestablishing it, but He is revealing it. This is what He promised to do. The Bible says that Jesus is the "originator and perfecter [over time] of our faith".
Jesus is the word of God, so His revelation means the revelation of the word of God. It means that through the power of that revelation, those to whom it is revealed will realize and see that God is the creator of everything. This is exactly what I teach and know. God is the creator of human politics, human philosophy, human psychology, and all of human nature, as well as the material world and its nature.
The fact that I am presenting a single, cohesive doctrine that ties all of this together, and fulfills the prophecy of revelation that God's word is the creator, is in itself very miraculous, and more than enough proof! I've put in red some points that you may want to discuss in more detail from the Bible; but if you think of it I'm sure you know many scriptures that speak of these things. |
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