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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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 Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Vibrate wrote: | | Well I had more posts, about 32, but many got deleted from the system for some reason. |
Are you sure? or is it just the illusion of 32 deleted posts by an illusionary system? |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure.
Would you like to discuss how I can be so sure that it is not an illusion? It is important to be able to discern the difference between knowing what you know and believing something that may not be correct.
Then we can also examine any other false system according to those criteria.
Tell me: How do you know the difference between reality and illusion? The whole point of illusion is that it appears to be the same as reality, so you have to look beyond that appearance. This requires understanding how something works, and you must have a plumb line in order to test things. The senses are not enough, since they can be deceived. The mind can also be deceived.
What plumb line can we use to examine the issue being discussed, and how would you go about examining whether or not that system is real? What does the system claim to be, and what is the reality concerning that claim?
| Quote: | | Are you sure? or is it just the illusion of 32 deleted posts by an illusionary system? |
That last post sounded a little bit like the mocker, but this post I am making is for those listening, as well as just in case it wasn't actually the mocker. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Philosophical idealism leads one away from Christ, it is a characteristic of gnostic thinking. It is dangerous on multiple levels. Most of us who have taken their first course in philosophy recognize this form of idealism and most people reject it for how useless it is.
There are so many different stupid things one might do based upon its assumptions about "reality." At its best it is just another way to wast time in speculation, and it is a waste of time in all its aspects. |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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That's true. Philosophical idealism is an illusion that gets people trapped in useless circles of logic, wasting time. It also divides people.
This is why it is vital that we humble our minds and study God's word, not relying on our own thinking at all.
However there is a hurdle we must pass when it comes to communicating the details of God's word with others, who may have been taught different ways of thinking. When we use logic and reasoning to bolster our arguments for why God's word is correct, how will our audience be able to know that we are talking about natural, grounded reality, and not "philosophical idealism"?
Well, that's a tricky one. But the answer is in God's word. Here is the answer: The word of God is a natural, human word, which pertains to the whole person. Its context is not merely philosophical, but it can be explained in philosophical terms, so that it defeats any false philosophy. But the word of God also appeals to the emotional, psychological, spiritual and practical aspects, which all combine in the human form. For this reason, it is correct that we require of anyone who claims to know God's word that they present a clear argument that deals with all of these elements.
Since we're talking about politics, I have chosen to use a more philosophical approach, because according to the prevailing traditions, political thought is considered by men according to the natural human element of philosophy. However, I have not limited my comments or my reasoning to philosophy, but I have also demonstrated that morally, psychologically and practically it is clear that the system is a fraud.
Morally, and practically, consider this - men are created to be free, and to think for themselves, and this cannot ever be abolished. But secular governments believe that it is possible, and even right, to try to control from the outside. Therefore we see that their govt is illusory.
Psychologically - allegedly, these systems are created by the people because they need to have peace and security, so they can feel free and calm. But in fact these systems are based on the concept of conflict, and oppression, as explained above.
There is of course a lot I can say about the false system, showing it to be false and destructive. Examine the word of God for men, which is nature - how he designed us to live. And then examine the practicality of the system, and see whether it is real or false. And try not to go back into the statement that since people follow it to some extent it must be real; that is not logical. Only if people follow something 100% would it be accurate, and even that would not make it real, since it could still be just a coincidence. The only thing that is real is that men strive constantly to find the good things in life. This is the natural economy and polity created by God, and governed by His word. The system is a fraud and false, because it is not the same as the word of God. This truth can be examined according to any element of the human constitution that you want. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Vibrate | Quote: | | There is of course a lot I can say about the false system |
I might agree with calling the system a "corrupt" system or "not representative" or even an "evil system" but to call it false just doesn't give me the understanding I think you actually mean. However bad the system is, it is still a system that exists and must be dealt with at one level or another.
Jesus might have joined those others in the first century who objected to the Roman oppression and fought against it but that would have reduced Him into just another rebel and that is far from what His message was all about.
Whatever government we might have there is a limit to the usefulness of rebelling against it. If we win against it what have we won? Just the job of setting up another system of our choice and not a second closer to God's way of doing things. Because there will inevitably be some compromises that need to be made just to get things to work in this world.
Jesus calls us to look to heaven and not be so attached to things of this world. |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Now it seems you're beginning to get the picture. But not yet fully. You still think I'm talking about "rebelling" and "being attached to the things of this world". I have simply made a statement, proclaiming that the system is false. This is not based on material or carnal thinking, but on the word of God, which is spiritual.
| Quote: | | I might agree with calling the system a "corrupt" system or "not representative" or even an "evil system" but to call it false just doesn't give me the understanding I think you actually mean. However bad the system is, it is still a system that exists and must be dealt with at one level or another. |
This is a standard response of someone trained to believe in the system, when confronted with evidence that it is false. Let us consider, however, whether it is correct to call it false, or whether we should say that it is merely corrupt.
The system claims to be representative of the people, so when it does not represent the people how can we call that merely imperfect, or corrupt? It is a lie. If I take away all your possessions and call them mine, then give back a few of them to you to use until I am tired of letting you use them, is my claim to ownership of your stuff merely corrupt, just because I let you have some of it to use? Is it merely not representative? Or is it a lie; is it stealing?
The system must be dealt with, yes, you're right. And the way to deal with it is by treating it as a lie, which is what it is. When someone tries to take your stuff, do you pretend that he's not a thief? No, you deal with the situation for what it is. All I'm asking is that we call a spade a spade. And the way to deal with a thief and a liar is not through negotiation or compromise, but by standing up firmly for the truth, in the authority of God. This is not a question of rebelling, but one of non-alignment. To "rebel" would be actually to acknowledge the system, which we should not do.
I can see underlying your comments that you are not aware of the natural system that God has created, which is a complete constitution, including institutions, officers, courts, and everything that a human governmental/national organization requires. And the real system that God created is fully real, fully representative, and contains zero corruption. It just has bad press, so far. But the purpose of this conversation is to reverse that, and demonstrate through the natural system of reasoning, logic and evidence, in the natural court of the mind, that this system is true.
I acknowledge that the false system does hold sway [please note that this is metaphorical language, since it is a false thing I'm talking about, so it is different from saying that a real system holds sway]. And we do need to deal with this, as we all know. However, the simple point that I have been making is that we need to deal with the false system NOT in terms of the false system, which are false terms. We need to deal with the false system in terms of the true reality, which is the natural system that God created.
This is not a rebellion. In fact, the false system is a rebellion against the true system, or rather it is a totally and completely failed attempt at rebellion - hitting your head up to a brick wall in an attempt to get past it, basically (inasmuch as that can be called rebellion, since it obviously is rebellious in spirit, but a complete failure as far as anything practical).
Let's talk about the real system, and you'll see more and more what I'm getting at. It's a great thing to learn about, to realize that the earth is truly yours, practically, and that any system that tries to oppress you is empty - a non-entity. Check it out. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Do you think "God's system" was ever meant to work in this world with fallen people to operate it? I don't think so. It can only work with Holy Spirit filled and obedient sons and daughters. That wont ever happen until after we are all living in a sin free world, this aint it.
Still you use the word false, as opposed to unGodly, or even worldly. Which is much closer to what I'm guessing you really mean. God warned everyone about falling victim to thinking like the world, the system you are calling false. Logically there are a whole spectrum of systems available for use; with God's system being one of them. I cannot disagree with your premise that God's system is the best of them all even ideally "good." I imagine that God's system will in fact be the system in place after we are all taken to heaven.
Do you actually believe that humans can ever make themselves into a perfect ideal people and therefore inhabit this ideal world.
I look forward yet to a day when this will be the state of normalcy but it will happen only after God expends His wrath on rebellious humans and the Earth is remade in His image. After the apocalypse and after most of the events called forth in Revelations. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
45... um... you do know the "Daily Show" is a comedy show... not really the news... yes? |
Aren't all political news shows comedy shows? |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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well the network News shows are entertainment (ratings driven rather than information driven). Surveys show that many people get their news from shows like the Daily Show along with the Internet.
I prefer the PBS News Hour with Jim Lehrer (which is politically neutral). I do in fact watch the Daily show also and "Countdown" with Keith Olbermann (both of which are very liberal.) |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you think "God's system" was ever meant to work in this world with fallen people to operate it? |
God's system is not a pie in the sky that comes at some future time; God's system is here and now. All creation exists only by the power of His word, so it is obvious that His system is in place. The question is not whether His system is in place practically, but whether people can operate it. And the answer is that fallen people cannot operate it, but risen people can operate it. This is the purpose of the message that I am bringing, so that God's people can rise to the occasion, and no longer perish and lose out for want of knowledge, but educate themselves about the reality of God's kingdom, which is here and now, and not in the distant future as most are taught. | Quote: | | I don't think so. It can only work with Holy Spirit filled and obedient sons and daughters. That wont ever happen until after we are all living in a sin free world, this ain't it. |
I believe that you are operating under the false concept that God's system can only be in place in someone's life when that person fully understands and acknowledges God's word. However this is not the case. God's system is in place whether someone believes it or not, but the difference is that the one who doesn't understand and acknowledge reality "fights" the truth and loses. God's system is in place, and that's why they lose. Winners win and losers lose because of the nature of God's system, which puts everyone in their correct place, and that's how the world really works. | Quote: | | Still you use the word false, as opposed to unGodly, or even worldly. |
What are you saying? God is the Creator of everything. So an ungodly teaching is false, not true. The only true teaching is that everything comes from God, and anything not coming from God is just nonsense, illusion, a lie, false, non-existent.
Let me try to open up your thinking with an example: If I take a multiple choice exam like SAT, and guess all the answers and get a high score, is that score a true or false measure of my "Scholastic Aptitude"? Guessing is a false system for approaching an exam, no matter what the results may be. | Quote: | | Do you actually believe that humans can ever make themselves into a perfect ideal people and therefore inhabit this ideal world. |
Yes, by trusting in the word of God. If you mean "make themselves" in an exclusive connotation, that would be nonsense, obviously. God is their creator, so there is nothing that anyone can do without God.
Consider Jesus before Pilate. Which one of those men was in charge of that trial? And which one of those men would CNN say was in charge of the trial, if CNN were there? So consider the notion that Pilate was the judge in a court that day, and that he was judging Jesus. Is this a true notion, or a false one? Then the system that holds Pilate to be in a position to judge Jesus, is that a true system and a real system, or is it false? Does the thing that it claims to be exist at all, or is it an illusion?
I know it's hard to start seeing the truth after a lifetime of believing lies. As Neo would say, "there is no spoon." |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Vibrate wrote: | | Winners win and losers lose because of the nature of God's system, which puts everyone in their correct place, and that's how the world really works. |
This is so simplistic Vibrate! Using my "human" eyes I see so many evil people winning everyday, and sometimes over years and years, gaining riches and power. Even evil people may die in their sleep never realizing their evil ways. Is this the description of how God's system works?
| Vibrate wrote: | | So an ungodly teaching is false, not true. The only true teaching is that everything comes from God, and anything not coming from God is just nonsense, illusion, a lie, false, non-existent. |
Yes an ungodly teaching is false but that doesn't mean that it is an illusion or non-existent, you seem to be using these words poorly or inaccurately and that is what so frustrates me. | Quote: | | So consider the notion that Pilate was the judge in a court that day, and that he was judging Jesus. Is this a true notion, or a false one? Then the system that holds Pilate to be in a position to judge Jesus, is that a true system and a real system, or is it false? Does the thing that it claims to be exist at all, or is it an illusion? |
If I was standing in that court I would say that it was very real, and you would too since it would be very apparent that objects we were seeing reflected light and our ears could hear them as they went along.
Bringing "The Matrix" into it all exposes your whole ideology. The world doesn't operate according to the Wachowski philosophy this is pure philosophical idealism and while it may be entertaining it just doesn't work. We cant wish our way into perfection nor can we merely "change our minds" into it either, neither the blue pill nor the red pills gives us this awareness or power. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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It is an absolute certainty that human nature never changes. We are born corrupt and self-centered, even the best among us. Unfortunately, the evil in man tends to dominate in any society. Man has said he can live without God, and God has given us the opportunity to see if that can work.
Every generation commits the same mistakes as the previous ones. Nations have come and gone, because they consistently self-destruct. The scary prospect, which we now face in the 21st century, is that science has now made it possible for us to destroy, not just a country, but all of mankind on a global basis. This isn’t just a possibility, it will happen. It is no longer “if,” but only a question of “when.”
Jesus stated that this would be the case, but he also said he would return to put a halt to man’s madness before this would become a reality. Mark 13:20; "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elects sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." How soon? It depends on how quickly men decide to start the worldwide nuclear bombardment in the name of peace. It is a possibility now.
Mankind left to its own devices without God, is insane. If Christ does not exist, then we will all be dead within the next few generations – maybe less – and this planet will be a smoking cinder in space. Human nature involves greed, and that never changes. Have a good day. |
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Vibrate
Little Hamster
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Thanks 45DegreeN. I really appreciate the way you are dealing with every topic that is raised, and sticking on point.
| Quote: | | Bringing "The Matrix" into it all exposes your whole ideology. |
I did walk into that one. But I did not mean to suggest that the world is not real in the sense that it wasn't real in the movie. The quote was just a metaphor.
Clearly, as you say, the actual physical room in which the proceedings occurred was real.
[And just by the way, Jesus controls that, too. He could have made the cross weigh just an ounce, so he could carry it easily. He could have made the whips pass right through him, or the spear and nails. I don't want to get into discussing this element just yet. Right now we have been talking about the political system.]
Obviously the lights and the chairs and the walls, floor and gavel are real, and yes the bailiff's guns and muscles, and the fact that he has a whole gang backing him up, all those are materially real. The illusion, which is false, is about the organization of how things work.
People would normally think that the guy with the gun, and the guy with the gavel are in charge. But they're not. So is the system that says they are in charge real, or an illusion? What I am saying is that the true system that runs the world is God's kingdom "unto us a son is born, and the govt. rests on his shoulders." God's kingdom, although not "of this world" runs things according to the principle of God's judgment. | Quote: | | This is so simplistic Vibrate! Using my "human" eyes I see so many evil people winning everyday, and sometimes over years and years, gaining riches and power. Even evil people may die in their sleep never realizing their evil ways. Is this the description of how God's system works? |
Okay. There are two points that I need to emphasize in response to this:
First, God's system is in place, but we are not doing as well with it as we could. So because of this we often end up at the wrong end of His judgments, and because of this we lose out. Kind of like wanting a job, and it being available, but you don't know where to search. This is basically the purpose of teaching God's word, so that we can learn how to access the treasures of God's kingdom, and how to avoid the pitfalls of ending up in his judgment and suffering.
Secondly, there is more to life than all the material things that you have mentioned. If you measure life in terms of a few of the good things, then it may seem confusing that someone who lives wickedly gets all of the good things that you measure. But the fact is that it will balance out in other areas, like a clear conscience, peace of mind, sleeping good at night, a sense of value as a person, and confidence in relationships, and confidence in your relationship with God - "my peace I leave with you." The worst thing in the world is to doubt yourself and have low self-esteem. A lively spirit, and positive attitude, and friends you can trust, a spouse you can trust... well, mastercard says it best. Some things are priceless.
Of course, material riches also belong to God's kingdom, and we need to access those. We need to access political freedom as well, which is pretty much what I've been focusing on here.
What I am fighting for is that the rule of law become manifest in human terms. The reality is there already, and always has been, as far as God's perspective. But that doesn't get us what we want unless we are able to conform to it. Instead we often choose to live in illusion, so that God's law becomes contrary to our desires. So we lose out - "for want of knowledge, my people suffer and die."
The word of God is essential to succeed in life, practically. But when you fail the word of God is still in charge, only that you are on the wrong end of it. God says: "Arise, go, take and eat." That is the principle of His guidance, and how his kingdom works. Disobey, and you go hungry. Obey, and you eat well. Either way, it's His rules. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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The apostle Paul writes that the things of the law are shadows. To be witnessed as real in some future time and probably not yet.
Take as an example the temple in Jerusalem. It was made from a model shown to Moses and written down by him as Moses was meeting God.
Was the Jerusalem temple real or false?
Well it was an Earthly representation of a heavenly thing, so it wasn't the "real thing" but it functioned as a Holy place for a long time as the site for the official sacrifices. Sacrifices which were accepted by God. It was blessed by God and many prophets spoke there.
But since it wasn't the "real thing" one may claim it was false, is this the basis by which you are using the term "false." |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Vibrate wrote | Quote: | | Secondly, there is more to life than all the material things that you have mentioned. If you measure life in terms of a few of the good things, then it may seem confusing that someone who lives wickedly gets all of the good things that you measure. But the fact is that it will balance out in other areas, like a clear conscience, peace of mind, sleeping good at night, a sense of value as a person, and confidence in relationships, and confidence in your relationship with God - "my peace I leave with you." The worst thing in the world is to doubt yourself and have low self-esteem. A lively spirit, and positive attitude, and friends you can trust, a spouse you can trust... well, mastercard says it best. Some things are priceless. |
Yes of course there are more important things than material things, still it is hard to avoid dealing with them and why philosophical idealism is such a perverse way of thinking. I really dont buy the old saw about the evil people missing sleep at night mostly they just don't care about others so it just doesn't bother them at all. God gives them over to their deceiving lusts and they sleep well whether or not we think otherwise.
I also dont buy into the idea that success in any worldly sense is a measure of success in God's eyes, they are two separate measures and can mix and match for any particular individual. Some of the prophets were wealthy but some were poor so it is not a basis to measure their connectedness to God. (Jeremiah was an example of a wealthy prophet, he was related to the king and owned much real estate, and Amos was an example of a poor prophet as a shepherd from the Northern tribes.) |
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