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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5918
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | I make no sense??? Are you kidding? I ask you to explain how DNA from aves and reptiles shows up in mammal... |
And where did this happen, exactly? |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorp wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Scorp wrote: | | The Platypus has the same DNA as birds and reptiles and therefore shares some traits with them. Are you ignoring this, or just having a difficult time accepting it? |
Wait a second... weren't you just excoriating me few posts ago for using traits instead of genes when discussing DNA...  |
Read what I said again. Or get someone who has better reading comprehension to explain what I said to you.
Then maybe we'll talk again.  |
Just what I figured... post number 9 was it? Maybe 10... you want to beat around the bush with all of these side issues but not address the topic.
Question my intelligence... reading comprehension... understanding of ToE all day long gunfighter… it does nothing to solve what you infer as a 'simple issue'. Try to stay on topic… -k-?
We are discussing the presence of Avian and reptilian DNA in a mammal. The mammalian traits developed separately from Aves and Reptiles... when they branched off of amphibians... the DNA should not be there... unless they have a common amphibian ancestor that posses all traits from all three of these classes of animals. All I am asking is for you to name the common ancestor or explain how the DNA wound up in the mammal. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, or demonstrate that you don't have any.... I'm asking for a simple answer to a simple question.... not rhetoric... philosophy... this is science (or at least it is suppose to be).
Please... this is request number 10.
Last edited by Trinity1 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | I make no sense??? Are you kidding? I ask you to explain how DNA from aves and reptiles shows up in mammal... |
And where did this happen, exactly? |
FFT... here is what Scorp stated:
| Scorp wrote: | | The Platypus has the same DNA as birds and reptiles and therefore shares some traits with them. |
Here is what the article stated:
| Article wrote: | | The bird-like qualities implied by its Latin name, Ornithorhynchus anatinus, include webbed feet, a flat bill similar to a duck's, and the gene sequences that determine sex. |
and this
| Article wrote: | | But there are reptile-like attributes too: females lay eggs, and males can stab aggressors with a snake-like venom that flows from a spur tucked under its hind feet. |
So.. my suggestion is you and Scorp need to get together and figure out which one it is going to be… either the platypus has avian and reptilian DNA… or it doesn’t. You can ask a million Q’s all you want… but I am am only going to cite what the article states… This is why Bouncer posted it...
Enjoy. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1696
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT - looks like Trinity has you in check... |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5918
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | FFT... here is what Scorp stated:
| Scorp wrote: | | The Platypus has the same DNA as birds and reptiles and therefore shares some traits with them. |
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Scorp is incorrect. The platypus shares some traits, nowhere is it claimed it shares DNA. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | FFT... here is what Scorp stated:
| Scorp wrote: | | The Platypus has the same DNA as birds and reptiles and therefore shares some traits with them. |
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Scorp is incorrect. The platypus shares some traits, nowhere is it claimed it shares DNA. |
Come on... these traits are specific to Ave and reptiles... they are one in the same... unless there are mammals that ave and retilian traits... this is the argument. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5918
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Come on... these traits are specific to Ave and reptiles... |
Obviously.
Oh, wait, that's complete nonsense or you'd have nothing to argue about since the platypus clearly does share traits with avians and reptiles so then they can't possibly be "specific" to avians and reptiles, can they?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | they are one in the same... unless there are mammals that ave and retilian traits... this is the argument. |
1. What?
2. The platypus is a mammal.
3. | Quote: | | The platypus represents the earliest offshoot of the mammalian lineage some 166 million years ago from primitive ancestors that had features of both mammals and reptiles. "What is unique about the platypus is that it has retained a large overlap between two very different classifications, while later mammals lost the features of reptiles," says Wes Warren, Ph.D., an assistant professor of genetics, who led the project. |
You could try reading but man it's so much effort.
Just in case you feel like bothering this time.
Note: 166 million years ago is in the Jurassic, the same time period it's thought that the first Aves arose. So bird traits (i.e. similar--not identical--sex chromosomes) are not necessarily surprising. Interesting, yes. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Come on... these traits are specific to Ave and reptiles... |
Obviously.
Oh, wait, that's complete nonsense or you'd have nothing to argue about since the platypus clearly does share traits with avians and reptiles so then they can't possibly be "specific" to avians and reptiles, can they? |
What? How many mammals run around with Duck Bills FFT? It obviously not a mammalian trait... it is an avian trait.
The venom injection... not mammalian specific... a reptilian trait.
Both are class specific developed traits...
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | they are one in the same... unless there are mammals that ave and reptilian traits... this is the argument. |
3. | Quote: | | The platypus represents the earliest offshoot of the mammalian lineage some 166 million years ago from primitive ancestors that had features of both mammals and reptiles. "What is unique about the platypus is that it has retained a large overlap between two very different classifications, while later mammals lost the features of reptiles," says Wes Warren, Ph.D., an assistant professor of genetics, who led the project. |
You could try reading but man it's so much effort. |
and... what is the next question Sir? Oh wait.... here it comes... wait... just a sec... oh yeah... please cite this common ancestor... if you can't... this is a guess... nothing more. It is a guess based on a philosophy with no empirical evidence supporting it. |
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Scorp
Goldfish
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Trinity, perhaps you have a child-like view of what a common ancestor should be. You think it should waddle like a duck, chirp like a bird, hiss like a snake, have a name and it's progeny would be the platypus.
This simplistic view may work for the Bible where God said let there be light, but in the scientific world, things get alot more complicated. If you knew the mechanics of Evolution you would realize how stupid you sound nagging for me to give something from your imagination a name! Nevertheless, I will give it a name for you...it's the waddle-chirp-hiss pus. That is the name of the common ancestor of the Platypus.
Now you prove I'm wrong. Okay? And use science to do it. If you cannot, you lose. LOL |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5918
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | What? How many mammals run around with Duck Bills FFT? It obviously not a mammalian trait... it is an avian trait. |
To state the obvious, it's a platypus bill, not a duck bill.
But to be a bit more gracious, no. A platypus bill is only superficially similar to a duck bill (i.e. if you don't know much about them). In birds, beaks are made of bone. In the platypus it's not even a beak, it's a snout. It's rather more rubbery than a beak.
Sure, it looks like a duck bill. But that's it. There are a number of other dissimilarities that are relatively easy to discover if you're actually interested in the platypus snout despite the fact that it doesn't have any usefulness to your "argument" though.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | The venom injection... not mammalian specific... a reptilian trait. |
I can think of at least three other venomous mammals.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Both are class specific developed traits... |
Or you (gasp) don't actually know much about what you're talking about. Not that this ever seems to stop you, though. You might want to look into why you keep at it.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | and... what is the next question Sir? Oh wait.... here it comes... wait... just a sec... oh yeah... please cite this common ancestor... if you can't... this is a guess... nothing more. It is a guess based on a philosophy with no empirical evidence supporting it. |
Oh hey it's the Trinity1™ method. "It's starting to look like I don't know what I'm talking about so it's time to switch to something else! Ha! That'll show them!"
Who cares? We don't need to know exactly what the common ancestor was. It'd be nice, and we can come up with ideas as to what it was like, but it's not as if it's so necessary to the theory of evolution that it simply can't progress without. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | What? How many mammals run around with Duck Bills FFT? It obviously not a mammalian trait... it is an avian trait. |
To state the obvious, it's a platypus bill, not a duck bill.
But to be a bit more gracious, no. A platypus bill is only superficially similar to a duck bill (i.e. if you don't know much about them). In birds, beaks are made of bone. In the platypus it's not even a beak, it's a snout. It's rather more rubbery than a beak. |
Fine... like I stated earlier... I am only repeating what the studies found... like HERE. You like the title of the article FFT?
| Quote: | | Sure, it looks like a duck bill. But that's it. There are a number of other dissimilarities that are relatively easy to discover if you're actually interested in the platypus snout despite the fact that it doesn't have any usefulness to your "argument" though. |
You mean... other than it shares the same DNA... traits... as aves of course.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | The venom injection... not mammalian specific... a reptilian trait. |
I can think of at least three other venomous mammals. |
That inject venom like reptiles??? Please... cite.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Both are class specific developed traits... |
Or you (gasp) don't actually know much about what you're talking about. Not that this ever seems to stop you, though. You might want to look into why you keep at it. |
What.. and keep referring to what the articles say... like... um... this:
| Quote: | | Interestingly, the platypus genome harbors both reptilian and mammalian genes associated with fertilization of eggs. |
or this one...
| Quote: | | Scientists were also eager to find out how venom production became a part of the platypus genome. When researchers began analyzing the genetic sequences responsible for venom production in the male platypus, they made a surprising finding. They discovered that venom produced by the male platypus arose from duplications in certain genes over the course of evolutionary time which had been passed on from ancestral reptile genomes. |
But of course... you would dismiss them as Trinity just rambling again... 
| Quote: | | Who cares? We don't need to know exactly what the common ancestor was. It'd be nice, and we can come up with ideas as to what it was like, but it's not as if it's so necessary to the theory of evolution that it simply can't progress without. |
Let me get this straight... the only answer for this critter is 'common ancestor' and then you say... we don't need to know now? Weren’t you just lambasting me about… what was it? Hell… it ain’t important… this is just priceless. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorp wrote: | Nevertheless, I will give it a name for you...it's the waddle-chirp-hiss pus. That is the name of the common ancestor of the Platypus.
Now you prove I'm wrong. Okay? And use science to do it. If you cannot, you lose. LOL |
OK... I looked it up and couldn't find a reference to it anywhere. You wouldn't be lying or making up stuff here now would you? This is science? Right? I mean... you beleive this stuff... can you cite this ancestor anywhere? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5918
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Fine... like I stated earlier... I am only repeating what the studies found... like HERE. You like the title of the article FFT? |
Choice quotes:
"Duck-Billed Platypus Genome Sequence Published"
Emphasis added (because, of course, this is what you were referring to). Yes, that is the full name of the platypus. And?
"these odd animals boast what looks like a duck's bill"
Emphasis added.
"shared DNA with Aves"
oh wait that's Not Freaking There At All Is It Oops Looks Like You Made Another Mistake (man you have no idea how much I wish I could really curse on these forums)
| Trinity1 wrote: | | You mean... other than it shares the same DNA... traits... as aves of course. |
Then do feel free to cite where it has been claimed that the platypus shares the same DNA as birds. Not just traits, traits are easy. DNA. Whenever you're ready, oh master of the cite demands.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | That inject venom like reptiles??? Please... cite. |
Aw, it's so cute that you didn't bother to actually look. Honestly. How do you breathe? Alphabetical order: certain species of shrews, slow lorises, and solenodons. Not only that, but two of these (not the lorises) have much more traditionally reptilian methods of venom delivery (you know, through the mouth).
See, this is why I still bother to engage you in any way. It's just so gosh darned hilarious when I can actually prove that you don't know what you're talking about instead of just knowing. Makes all of this silliness worth it.
| Trinity1 wrote: | What.. and keep referring to what the articles say... like... um... this: | Quote: | | Interestingly, the platypus genome harbors both reptilian and mammalian genes associated with fertilization of eggs. |
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I have not at any point in this thread questioned that the platypus is the descendant of an intermediate between mammals and reptiles.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | But of course... you would dismiss them as Trinity just rambling again... |
Well, emphatically, yes. Yes, that's precisely what you're doing. Do you honestly think you're being brilliant here?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Let me get this straight... the only answer for this critter is 'common ancestor' and then you say... we don't need to know now? Weren’t you just lambasting me about… what was it? Hell… it ain’t important… this is just priceless. |
Oh, I'm sure. What was it I was lambasting you about? No, seriously. It's just so cute to watch you struggle.
Oh and just for the sheer hilarity
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Buddy... I understand your theory better than you do... that much is obvious to everyone participating in this thread. This is exactly why Bouncer bowed out and FFT and Ana ain't got a word to say. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | You mean... other than it shares the same DNA... traits... as aves of course. |
Then do feel free to cite where it has been claimed that the platypus shares the same DNA as birds. Not just traits, traits are easy. DNA. Whenever you're ready, oh master of the cite demands. |
Funny FFT... you consistently deride me for, according to you, not knowing what I'm talking about...
Perhaps we ought to recap some terms here before you make a bigger fool out of yourself...
DNA is the information contained within an organism's genes that tells cells what functions to perform. Wikipedia defines it as thus:
| Quote: | | Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) is a nucleic acid that contains the genetic instructions used in the development and functioning of all known living organisms and some viruses. |
Organisms therefore have information within their genome to construct (develop) certain types of characteristics... what we also refer to as... TRAITS. The same website defined a trait as thus:
| Quote: | | A trait is a distinct phenotypic character of an organism that may be inherited, environmentally determined or somewhere in between.[1] For example, eye color is a character, while blue, brown and hazel are traits. |
These traits, within the phenotypes, share similarities... meaning, according to current theory, a common ancestor. They share a common ancestor FFT. Meaning… if current theory is correct, we ought to see some types of transitional forms… or find amphibians possessing traits from all three of these classes.
So, when an organism contains information (DNA - instructions) for the development of... oh... I'm not really sure what to call it here... yeah... sure... why not.... a TRAIT... and animals share similar traits, then they don't necessarily have to share the same exact DNA sequences... but the sequences of the DNA are closely patterned... indicating a shared ancestry (according to current theory of course).
Which leads me back to my original point that you are having a hard time understanding. According to current theory mammals descended from amphibians. Mammalian traits were developed through the evolutionary processes over gazillions of years. Reptiles also descended from amphibians (aves from reptiles) developing reptilian traits over gazillions of years. You see FFT... these traits that are found in thee classes developed separately from their amphibian ancestors... therefore, what you want us to believe is that at the same time mammals were developing the same traits as reptiles.... aves... and to top all of this off... and yes this is the most predictable and laughable part... you provide NO... NONE... NADA... ZIPPO... ZILCH... (as most of the theory does) observational evidence to back up your assertions.
It always seems to be the poor little ignorant fundy YEC that doesn't know what they are talking about. I realize that I’m asking you to apply higher level thinking skills beyond the knowledge level… but don’t get down on me when you can’t and then lash out (wishing you could curse)… it is not my fault. I realize life is harder when you have not developed these skills yet…. but that gives you no reason to upset with everyone else.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | What.. and keep referring to what the articles say... like... um... this: | Quote: | | Interestingly, the platypus genome harbors both reptilian and mammalian genes associated with fertilization of eggs. |
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I have not at any point in this thread questioned that the platypus is the descendant of an intermediate between mammals and reptiles. |
Oh… that’s cute… can you explain where an intermediary between a reptile and a mammal would come from? I’m sure you realize that no one claims this FFT… yes? If you do please tell us, using current theory, how a reptile descends into a mammal… or vice versa. If amphibians descended into reptiles… and amphibians descended into mammals… I don’t think anyone is claiming that the platypus is an intermediate form of any type between these two… I might be wrong about this… but I don’t recall that statement being made. I recall the claim of a common ancestor… and then the split…. but not as an intermediate form.
Nice strawman though… I almost missed it.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | But of course... you would dismiss them as Trinity just rambling again... |
Well, emphatically, yes. Yes, that's precisely what you're doing. Do you honestly think you're being brilliant here? |
No... not at all... I'm actually tying to get you all to come to terms with what your precious theory postulates... bounce it off of what the science demonstrates, and then have you draw simple logical conclusions. I realize that is asking a lot… and unfortunately it has become obvious to me that just the simplest inferences and conclusions are essentially out of your grasp... and I am making way to many assumptions about how much you know about the theory. |
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Scorp
Goldfish
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | According to current theory mammals descended from amphibians. |
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Reptiles also descended from amphibians ... developing reptilian traits over gazillions of years. |
| Trinity1 wrote: | | ....these traits that are found in th[r]ee classes developed separately ...... |
If we are to follow your line of reasoning, they all had the same lineage. Without genetic lineage, they could not exist. Nor could we. Even if we cannot be certain of every species (extinct or living)common ancestry, it is clear through the fossil record that the shared DNA shows a relationship. Here is what Creationists have to deal with. They can't prove that shared DNA isn't proof of common ancestry. I think that's what upsets you the most Trinity. But, you should be used to that road block, because no one has yet proven there is a God.
Sorry about all the editing. Too much to say. |
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