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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3011
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: The Desire for an Easy Religion ? |
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The desire for an easy religion that requires no striving, no self-denial, no divorce from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of faith, and faith only, a popular doctrine; but what saith the word of God ?
Says the apostle James: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?
can faith save him? . . . Wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead ?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar ?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? . . . Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:14-24.
{GC 472.1}
The testimony of the word of God is against this ensnaring doctrine of faith without works.
It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions upon which mercy is to be granted, it is presumption; for genuine faith has its foundation in the promises and provisions of the Scriptures. {GC 472.2}
Let none deceive themselves with the belief that they can become holy while willfully violating one of God's requirements.
The commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit and separates the soul from God (Isaiah 59:2).
"Sin is the transgression of the law." And "whosoever sinneth [transgresseth the law] hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:6.
Though John in his epistles dwells so fully upon love, yet he does not hesitate to reveal the true character of that class who claim to be sanctified while living in transgression of the law of God.
"He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected." 1 John 2:4, 5.
Here is the test of every man's profession.
We cannot accord holiness to any man without bringing him to the measurement of God's only standard of holiness in heaven and in earth.
If men feel no weight of the moral law, if they belittle and make light of God's precepts, if they break one of the least of these commandments, and teach men so, they shall be of no esteem in the sight of Heaven, and we may know that their claims are without foundation. {GC 472.3}
(Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, by E. G. White)
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2551
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Let's all go out into the desert and become recluses suffering for our faith...
Most of the people mentioned in Paul's writing were middle class and above, engaged in ordinary careers and they didn't perform any demonstratable public sacrifices they went about their lives humbly and without fanfare and well within the ordinary confines of ordinary life.
By the way Hebrews points out that Abraham was not justified by what he did on mount Mariah, but his attitude of faith(Hebrew12). When he left his servant he said "we'll be back", indicating that somehow both he and his son were returning. Gen22:4.
(Based upon works) all the prophets are failures since none of them were able to keep Israel from backsliding and that is specifically what their job was.
Your consistently citing James, in the face of mountains of contradictory material from Paul is futile. It is not our efforts but Jesus' efforts that count.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3011
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | | Let's all go out into the desert and become recluses suffering for our faith... |
How would that help anyone ?
Suffering can occur doing the very work Jesus Christ assigned us to do.
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
| Quote: |
Your consistently citing James, in the face of mountains of contradictory material from Paul is futile. |
I see...you believe that the Bible contradicts itself ?
| Quote: |
It is not our efforts but Jesus' efforts that count. |
And you ignore what Jesus expects us to do ?
Phillippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
There is work, for each Christian that Jesus tells us to do.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Brother Surfer, you have often quoted James to try to refute what Paul wrote. You have even called things Paul wrote "what Satan wants the world to believe". You're hardly in a position to condemn anyone for trumping one apostle's writings with another.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | The desire for an easy religion that requires no striving, no self-denial, no divorce from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of faith, and faith only, a popular doctrine; but what saith the word of God ? |
It's all in how you spin it. I can just as easily say this:
The desire for an ego/flesh gratifying religion that makes man's own outward righteousness the thing that earns him favor and rightstanding with God has made the doctrine of faith, with man's justification really based on works , a popular doctrine; but what saith the word of God ?
And I think I would have more scriptures - indeed entire epistles - to answer the question "What saith the Word of God?"
Your supporting quotes from Ellen G White again prove that she was a hardheaded person, preferring to dream up her own foolish ideas than to listen to what anyone else, especially those who knew more than her, had to say. I know a few such people in my life today. It's no stretch of imagination that they were around in Ellen G White's day. And it seems many of them end up in ministry or "spiritual leadership" where they do untold damage.
Furthermore, your claim that belief in faith alone making one righteous is an "easy religion" is a faulty foundation on which your point is made. The gospel of righteousness apart from works is anything but easy. It brought persecution and martyrdom on many in the early church because the self righteous and religious in their day, as in ours, were furious at the idea. And it cost our dear Savior His life.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2551
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Zathrus on this one.
_________________
My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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JonMarie
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 637
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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SS, I totally agree with you, however, that only applies to those who are "In Christ" those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. This easy believeism you speak of, is the main corruption in our churches today, and with it comes the requirement of persecution, the refining fire.
John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Faith without works is dead, as is works without faith.
God requires obedience and not sacrifice. In the context we are to die to self, our old nature, and put on the new
man.
Thank you for the post and your love for the brethern. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
some may say that walking by faith is easy...
but when you begin to actually demonstrate these fruits in your life..it's a challenge.
The works which we should do is walking in the spirit and not in the flesh. It's so much easier to be envious, to be greedy, to be hateful, spiteful, impatient, angry, unloving, creating turmoil rather than peace.
Just walk by the spirit and bare these fruit in all kinds of weather and soon you will see that it is a good work which we do.
| Quote: | Suffering can occur doing the very work Jesus Christ assigned us to do.
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: |
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
these are the works of the flesh in which the law was made for:
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
All these works were manifest in the people God chose out of Egypt. It was because of these works that God gave them the law in the first place. They were a chosen people a chosen generation to show forth God's handiwork in them. But they failed because they did the works and had no faith. So works can't save you from the works of the flesh listed above, but faith can.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
You see Silver, we was given a clean slate. No sin. And the only time the law comes into play is when we do not live by the fruit of the spirit but by the works of the flesh.
And it's not easy walking in the spirit..to turn the other cheek, to love your enemies, to be longsuffering and gentle and meek in the face of adversity. It's a job...
no wait..
it's not just a job, it's an adventure.. 
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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JonMarie
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 637
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Lone wrote: | Quote: | | Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. |
the law is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, those who are led of the Spirit, by the power of their new nature, fulfill the law.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Lone wrote:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
against such there is no law, because against such, no law is required, because it is automatically fulfilled. |
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JonMarie
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 637
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Lone wrote: | Quote: | | And it's not easy walking in the spirit..to turn the other cheek, to love your enemies, to be longsuffering and gentle and meek in the face of adversity. |
in the power of the old nature it is not easy, at best.perhaps at worst it is impossible.
but it is the natural inclination of the new nature, the regenerate man, to turn the other cheek and to be longsuffering, etc. Consider Paul (after he was empowered by the spirit) the joy he expressed regardless of his circumstances, or chains. His focus was on the eternal and not the temporal, a typical characteristic of the new man. Born of the spirit |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Brother Surfer, you have often quoted James to try to refute what Paul wrote. You have even called things Paul wrote "what Satan wants the world to believe". You're hardly in a position to condemn anyone for trumping one apostle's writings with another. |
What's funny is I actually agree with SS on this one. Regardless of whether Christianity actually has any capital T Truth behind it, the writings of and the writings attributed to Paul perverted it.
It was Paul's work that changed Christianity from the Ebionites (that actually followed what Jesus taught) to the Christianity that became the Catholic Church and so on.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3011
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | Faith without works is dead, as is works without faith.
God requires obedience and not sacrifice. In the context we are to die to self, our old nature, and put on the new man. |
And this is the hardest part in a Christian's life.
This is what determines whether a person gets into heaven or not.
Getting your name in the Book of Life, is EASY......BUT keeping there is the hardest thing people will ever have to do.
God will ALWAYS test an individual Christian in their daily lives, to show them IF they are truely loyal to God or not, and will they do whatever God asks of them, no matter how unreasonable it may seem ?
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | It was Paul's work that changed Christianity from the Ebionites (that actually followed what Jesus taught) to the Christianity that became the Catholic Church and so on. |
That is ironic since it was also Paul's writings that inspred Martin Luther to begin the reformation, which we know has caused the Catholic Church to take the stand that all those Protestant heretics are lost sinners.
I do think Paul's ministry took Christianity from being a sect of Judaism, with no place in it for Gentiles, to a faith under which distinctions like Jew/Gentile, male/female, etc did not matter. But I see this transition foretold by the prophets in the old testament, and part of a continuing plan of salvation which the cross was the central point of, but which continued afterward in the preaching of the gospel and the inclusion of Gentiles as fellow heirs. Paul considered the calling out of a new chosen people, with a new name, consisting of both Jew and Gentile, which the last several chapters of the book of Isaiah are all about, to be the mystery of Christ.
I agree that Paul's ministry took the early church in a new direction that the first Jewish disciples of Jesus would not have thought to go. But I think it was an important part of the plan for that to happen.
Otherwise, the early church would have ended up believing that salvation came by adhereing to the 10 commandments + selected others, and knowing/quoting a lot of scripture. And then why would we have needed Ellen G White to come along? 
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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JonMarie
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 637
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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SS wrote | Quote: | And this is the hardest part in a Christian's life.
This is what determines whether a person gets into heaven or not.
Getting your name in the Book of Life, is EASY......BUT keeping there is the hardest thing people will ever have to do.
God will ALWAYS test an individual Christian in their daily lives, to show them IF they are truely loyal to God or not, and will they do whatever God asks of them, no matter how unreasonable it may seem ? |
Here is where we part ways.
I disagree on all 4 points, it is hard for you to resist placing your hand in an open flame? |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3011
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | SS wrote | Quote: | And this is the hardest part in a Christian's life.
This is what determines whether a person gets into heaven or not.
Getting your name in the Book of Life, is EASY......BUT keeping there is the hardest thing people will ever have to do.
God will ALWAYS test an individual Christian in their daily lives, to show them IF they are truely loyal to God or not, and will they do whatever God asks of them, no matter how unreasonable it may seem ? |
Here is where we part ways.
I disagree on all 4 points, it is hard for you to resist placing your hand in an open flame? |
Eternal Life HAS ALWAYS been on condition of obedience.
Adam & Eve were the first, to be tested, on that issue.
Even Jesus Christ, was tested !
He was tested on the point of appetite (Matthew 4:3,4).
The Garden of Gethsemane was another test where Jesus begged 3 times, to be excused from going to the Cross !
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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JonMarie
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 637
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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SS, do you think God stands up there in heaven with a great big score card just waiting to jump on the opportunity of one of us messing up or making a mistake or failing the test ? So He could get His big God eraser and erase our name from the Lamb's Book of Life?
Matt 11:28-30
28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Do you have children? were/are you a loving father? Did you lay in wait to pounce on the opportunity of one of you children messing up ? or did you lovingly correct them? God loves us so much more than any earthly father could and He is patient and longsuffering toward us. David messed up big time and suffered the consequences(his child died) and yet God referred to David as a man after Gods own heart.
He came that we could have life and have it more abundantly.
It is not about pass or fail tests-(although they demonstrate our need for Him)
It is about a loving relationship between the created and the Creator.
Jesus was tempted in order to show us how to defeat temptation.(by the sword of the Spirit)(part of the armour of God)
He wants us to follow His example, because He loves us and wants what is best for us.
When you love God so much that you would die for Him, it is only natural that you want to please Him and be obedient because you trust Him and know that He only wants the best for you. Therefore out of the profound appreciation and gratefulness for all He did, does and will do, our earnest desire is to walk ever closer with Him.
James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Knowing that sin separates us from the one we love above all else.
Please read "The True Christian's Love to the Unseen Christ" by Thomas Vincent 1634-1678
Dear SS, you sound like you are trying so hard you are going to give youself a nervous breakdown.
Stop trying so hard and just let go of whatever is standing in your way, have a complete sincere heart toward God and bring your junk to Him and let Him fix it.
2 Cor 12:19
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
PS if I am wrong about you, please forgive me, it is how you come across to me.
God Bless you dear brother
PPS Does Matthew 6:15 apply?
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. |
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