Is God cruel?

45degreeN · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:43 am Post subject:

Well since we've decided that God is cruel (and He is almighty) then what is your response to this information? To deny it? Or to pay respects to this almighty and (cruel) dictator God, hoping to get on His good side? Huh?

Simply rejecting such a God is tantamount to risking your life on a huge bet that HE doesn't exist, just because you cant see Him. Not a wise decision.

Roster · Tadpole Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 26

Here's a thought, What was God's plan in the first place when he decided to create us and let us roam on this earth? If we were created in his image but didn't know good and evil or right from wrong then we must have been created just only in his image physically. If God did not want us to have free will (knowledge of good and evil) then what were we going to be? Were we just going to be puppets to do only righteousness like programmed robots? I don't believe that would be any fun for us or God. Is knowledge of good and evil a gift, or something that we wish we didn't have so we couldn't mess up and be perfect?

If God is all knowing, then why didn't he sense the serpent coming to trick us and try to save us? One might say that He wanted to test us to see if we are loyal, again He is all knowing, He knows our hearts and if we are loyal or not, that's why I don't understand God making Abraham offer Isaac, He should have known his heart like He knows the # of our hair. And if he wanted to test us, then why didn't he just create us knowing good and evil?

What do you guy's think?

Roster · Tadpole Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 26

45, If you consider God cruel, then would it be crazy to consider that anyone following this so called cruel God, is going in the wrong direction worshiping someone cruel? Worshiping someone cruel would mean participating in things that are not righteous.

If we can justify God being cruel, then we need to reprogram our minds to think that the things in the bible that are considered cruel to be not cruel, but good and righteous. I think we should still stone our kids when they are rebellious. Cool

lone-traveler · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:21 am Post subject:

Hi Roster,
you wrote:

holly102869 · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:51 am Post subject:

Is God Cruel?

This is a Question that depends on who you are and where you are in your faith, to how your answer will turn out.
To me he is not cruel. Why? Because, Everything that has happened to me has made me stronger in my faith and a better person. I thank him for the things that happen to me in the past, because the things that happen now are easy to handle.

God gave us life!
How is life cruel?

If we Wake up and see the good in everything and stop analizing the bad. Or stop justifing our bad choices, we will see that God is not the one who is cruel it is we who who make everything in life hard with selfdoubt and a hardness in our hearts. Lets not forget the blame game. Take responsibility for our own actions. Open your hearts and minds of the possibilities of life. Live, Laugh and Love. And most of all let everything go and have faith in the one who gave us everything we see.

May Gods Grace Shine Down On All Of Us!!!

lone-traveler · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:25 am Post subject:

Amen Holly!

Roster · Tadpole Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 26

Lone, Are you saying that God and the serpent worked together to free Adam? If thats the case, I can agree because the bible only makes sense that way. God had this plan all along for us to fall, He knew it was inevitable not to. I believe he wanted us to fall (sin) so that we can know what it is (sin) and desire good. If this is the case, then I don't believe satan exists, and that God created us knowing good and evil instead of us not being aware of it.

Holly,
I think you are not understanding the question. It is not "is life cruel" but "is God cruel"? We all know life isn't fair and that we must get the best out of it. The question is, is it wrong for God to harden peoples heart, kill babies, stone the disobedient instead of teaching what is right? This topic has nothing to do with analyzing the bad in life, just a debate wondering if God is cruel.

I personally believe that the OT is at times brutal and not the true traits of God.

lone-traveler · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject:

Hi Roster,

Roster · Tadpole Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 26

Hi Lone,

Very good post, little confused but good post. Are you saying we should listen the the one that told us the truth in the beginning about eating the fruit or the one that told us not to eat?

Still I don't understand the point of God hiding the knowledge from us if he knew we were going to eventually find it out or sin. He is all knowing and he had to know that we were going to sin (knowledge of good and evil). Why didn't he create us already knowing what sin was instead of hiding it within us to be later discovered? Doesn't make sense or have a point unless it was all a mistake.

Roster · Tadpole Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 26

Lone,

I have heard of this creation story that makes a lot if sense, is considered to be true and lines up with what you are saying. This is said to come from the earliest writings known to man(cuneiform) from Sumeria. These writings also speak of the great flood but will not discuss in this post.

Before homo sapiens, there was a very intelligent race with human characteristics that could travel in space outside the ozone layer. They currently resided on earth. The story tells that they were lazy and wanted to create someone or something to do their dirty work, basically to be their slaves (similar to our machines, cars, etc. that we have today making our lives easier).

This alien race (not martian or hollywood alien, but unknown to the human race) created us humans with several ingredients: 1) mud (dirt as the bible tells), 2) the spirit of one of a sacrificed alien (this would explain our energy source), 3) either blood or water which would easily explain us having 70% water or the blood, which ever it was.

Here comes the interesting part, where the serpent comes in. These aliens didn't want us to be free simply because we were to be their slaves. So basically, here we are after just been created and we have free will, but do not have the knowledge of good and evil. With out this knowledge, one cannot ever be free after death. So basically, if we didn't know right from wrong, then our soul would not exists after death. There was another group of people but they were considered righteous and were concerned with the teaching of spiritual knowledge to better each person. This group did not like the idea of the aliens enslaving us so they sent one to free us (the serpent). The serpent gave us the fruit of knowledge, but was caught by the aliens before he could give us the fruit of the tree of life, which would have been immediate spiritual freedom.

Later, these same aliens (ones using us for slavery) are the ones we are told about in the bible that came from heaven and bred with the daughters of man.

The story is way more detailed and it also keeps going where I left off. I was not searching for this when I came across it, it just kind of stumbled in front of me. Would like to hear some thoughts. Thank you.

lone-traveler · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject:

Hi Roster,

lone-traveler · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject:

Hi Roster,

Roster · Tadpole Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 26

Lone,
Awesome post. Have not viewed it in that way, and the way you present it, it makes sense. From Adam to Moses to Jesus the law or message is perfected. Thank you for the link you posted in your previous post, it also made alot of sense and I have never viewed it 100% that way (mans sufficiency and God's sufficiency).

Your last post makes so much sense and I can agree with you. You said there are alot of "unknowns" (there are so many that make sense too, so I just go with my heart instead of putting faith in man) out there and that is technically everything, how we got here, what we are made of (besides atoms and nucleus's), who made us, religion, etc. I have zero proof of which path to take (religion) but have plenty of proof inside me that choosing good over evil will always benefit humans. If we choose evil, then there will be one last standing man, proving he was the survival of the fittest, verses if we act out of love only, then humans will live in complete harmony. I believe God's word (Spirit) is in me and that I don't need the mans changing of Gods word to go by.

Back to the falling of man. If I overlooked or misunderstood something (in your previous post) please forgive me. First I see not any evil in Adam or Eve when they sinned, which I don't believe they did. How can one sin if they don't have knowledge of good and evil? Adam and Eve could not have sinned for they didn't know what sin was. It says that the sin was in Adams bosom. If the sin was in adams bosom, then fruit did not have some kind of special knowledge within its juices. Eve sinned not when she ate of the fruit, but when she took it from the serpent. She pre-meditated to disobey God and thats the sin, not actually eating it. But then again did she really pre-meditate? Of course she did, but she didn't realize what this pre-meditation was because of the lack of understanding good and evil. She was just discovering themselves and how can this be labeled a sin? It should be labeled the opposite, such as being awakened so we can choose good.

How can God be be disappointed and punish us from the beginning when his plan was for us to fall. He knew Eve would disobey. Why did God have the tree's for us to be tempted by anyway? He wanted to test us other wise he wouldn't have put us in that situation.

If I understand you correctly, you say the God did not write Gen. but moses did. Well if man has the power to write a book and say that God wrote it and have many followers, then what's the difference between that and the bible or religion. They are the same. Moses wrote a book claiming to be God, people believed and followed. How do we not know that man didn't start religion to have many followers like Moses writing the OT and having many followers.

I see no progression of the humans or the law from Adam to Moses to Jesus. Adam was basically a new born baby who did not know much of anything. When they sinned, they were not aware of what they were doing. They were just being curious and that is not a sin, it is just finding out who they were and what they are about. Moses was not wicked. I don't recall him doing any major sin. He even took up for the people after building the caf that Aaron helped build. He told God to have mercy on the people and not to kill them. Moses doesn't seem to wicked or evil here, actually a little nicer than God. I don't believe Moses was forgetting the message God told him @ Sinai. If Moses was forgetting anything, then it was the details that God gave to Moses other than the tablets. We see Moses disobeyed God and smote the rock. That is really not that bad. Peter denied Christ (an appointed apostle by Jesus), so I see no progression from Moses to Peter.

If you are saying that God was speaking to Moses, but Moses wrote his own words (not God's) then why should I believe this ancient story in the first place. It was changed by the appointed one (Moses). How do we not know that Moses just wanted his people freed from the pharaoh because they were in bondage and Moses didn't like that (which is good) so he got them out claiming that it was the power of God when in fact God was never with him.

If God appointed people to write his word, but then allowed it be changed or manipulated, then God defeated His Own purpose. I don't think God would appoint people to write His word through God (His Spirit), and later let it be changed by man (without His Spirit). If God knew that man would have been able to change His word, He would have never given it.

Pondering · Lion King Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1265

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject:

awesome Roster!

and very good questions indeed!
And this is where we start diggin.. Very Happy

Because we are told to prove all things.So the only way to prove the scriptures is by comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.

If we consider the Body of Christ we see that the body represents the wife or church of Christ. And the many members which make up that body.
Jesus is the head of it.

If we consider Adam we see that the Body represents Eve and the many members which make up that body. And Adam is the head of that.
But in the beginning it was not so, But Adam and Eve reigned as co-equals.

looking at the "principle" of where Eve was in relation to Adam in the beginning before the fall:

Mat 10:24 The disciple (Eve) is not above [his] master (Adam), nor the servant (body) above his lord (head).
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.

So in the beginning Adam and Eve were created equal. And he called "their name" Adam.
Like today our name is Christian or New Jerusalem or Zion.
Or in Moses' day was called Israel.

Then we have the dust of the earth in which Adam was created and Eve was taken out of.

If we look through the bible we will see that dust represents peoples.

Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.

Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

In the new testament we see this very dust or seed of the nations all coming together making one body. The body of Christ or the church.
So if I apply this same principle to Adam who was formed from the dust of the earth, then I see Adam as formed from many different peoples and built up into one man Adam.

considering the Body of Israel it was made up of not only Israels children but also those who came out of Egypt with them..

Exd 12:37 ¶ And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot [that were] men, beside children.
Exd 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.

So Israel was now being created not from the seed or dust of Israel alone, but also a seed of mixed multitudes that came out with them.

And so Adam created out of the dust of the earth so too was created by mixed multitudes of people.

And Eve is called the mother of all living, because all those who were in her was of faith. Otherwise she would be the mother of all dead (faithless).

In another view, there are many..

Moses is the head in the NT Jerusalem. Mary represents Eve.
Adam is the head in the OT Jerusalem. And Eve represents Mary before the fall..Mary represents Eve after the fall:

Luk 1:45 And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

What was Eve told?

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name.
Luk 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
Luk 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Luk 1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of [his] mercy;
Luk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

So Eve was placed in subjection of her husband Adam, and because she was obedient and obeyed him..the she was given back her status as equal to her master but not above him.
And so the Head and the Body fitly joined together..for whatsover God hath joined let no man put asunder, has become one whole man again. And that is Christ and his church...Adam and Eve redeemed from sin.

Adam blamed the woman for the predicament he was in. And he made laws for the church to abide by. And it was her "duty" to obey her husband in all things. No loger able to co-rule she was made subject to his laws. And because Adam was placed under bondage:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

So Adam ruled with a rod of iron because he was placed under subjection of the rod himself.

remember Jesus said:

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

So whatever Adam saw His Father do he did also.
I believe that Pharoah represents Adam after he fell.
He became angry and he put Eve's children under his own wrath. Made them work, punished them for his own sin.

And when God heard the children God sent Moses to take them out f bondage.
But again the same principle applies..
What did Moses see God do?
He went into Egypt and destroyed that. So then Moses copied not only wha he saw God do,but also what he ad seen his own Father (Adam/Pharoah) do.
So the rod od iron increased even more. It was double hard bondage in that once they were in a place that had food even though they had to work hard for it, now they were brought out into the wilderness where there was no food, no water. They had to learn to rely on God for all things. And God made Moses the head of the church.

We are told that the scribes and pharisees sit in Moses seat. These are those who write and translate the laws Moses was given. And we see how Jesus bashes them for changing Moses' law.
Israel walked by the voice of the Lord or Spirit of the Lord in the wilderness. But they chose not to hear the Lord but rather recieve drection from the mouth of a man than to listen to the voice of God in their hearts.

Compare King Saul whom the people chose over God to lead them, because they wanted a king to lead them into battle like the other nations rather than to walk in God's Spirit.

And so God hardened Israels heart so they could not hear the spirit of the law but only the words in stone.
Moses only did what the lord told him to do..
and a few times reasoned with the Lord. And when he reasoned with the Lord, usually the ord would hear him and agree with him. But when God told Moses to speak to the rock and Moses struck it with his rod twice, he was not doing God's will but exacting his own will.
He struck the rock in wrath in anger in defiance..
As a type of how Eve recieved a blow from Adam..
the woman thou gavest me she gave me to eat..and so took his anger out on her..

stones also represent the children which are used in building God's church:

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

So I see Moses striking the church twice with the rod.
Once Eve, and the second Jerusalem.
But the third time God gives mercy and not wrath to his church as seen by God's mercy towards Mary. Who is the New Jerusalem, and Zion, redeemed from her dead husband Adam and become married to her husband God himelf.
No longer put inder the subjection of Man, but under the subjection of God's Spirit himself.

So the scriptures are used to prove all things whether what man says is true or not. And the nly way to know for sure is to compare God's Spirit to the words which are written both in stone and in pen.

Some things are written by man, these are the tares which need to be removed..these are the books in which man will be judged by what man has written in them.
But the little book is the wheat which will remain after all the tares have been removed. And those who are written in that book will be made known. The truth and lies are all interwoven. Some words are written through the spirit of man and how they perceive the truth. And some words are writte by the spirit of God who moved men to wrte his words and not their own.

And even if there are lies in the bible, then the lies themselves can not hide the truth of those which are lies. All things are uncovered. Which makes even the lies known for what they are, the truth of man's spirit versus God's spirit. So we can "see" the difference and learn to rightly divide the word of God and the words of men.

Earth=dust, peoples and nations and tongues...Adam, MAN.

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

we see this everytime Jesus says..
ye have heard it said..but I say..
bringing the laws and ordinances and the everlasting covenant back into the light, into the truth, of what man himself had changed.

How do we know if whar is written in the OT is true?
By compring it with what thespirit of God says and proving it in the light of God's Word.

Jesus says:

1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

which I hear as..
All those things which were written before Christ came, before he gave the Holy Spirit to man..that none of those things should be judged true or false until we have the candle in which to lead us through those dark pages of the OT.
We know that those who wrote in the OT were under a veil. A lot of things are as shadows. And in some places the darkness and light walk together but they are still shrouded in a mystery.
Bur when the truth came and we recieved the spirit of God in which to discern the spirits of those who wrote the OT, then was the time to campare spiritual with spiritual..and not before.

And this is how I believe Paul was able to go through the scriptures and explain how everything has a spiritual foundation. That the flesh or carnal knowledge does not take precedence over the spiritual knowledge. That the flesh carnal knowledge profits nothing because it is not of faith. But the true spiritual knowledge this is what we should strive to attain.
And it is by the spiritual knowledge that one can prove or test the spirits of men.

Hugs Roster
lone