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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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 Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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SS,
You asked:
"How many people can find in the Bible, the definition of what Righteousness is ?"
21 But now apart from the law, the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say , at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
But now apart from the law (nuni de cwris nomou). Paul now moves forward carefully in verses 21-31. In these following verses we see the nature of the God-kind of righteousness which is conveyed here. (dikaiosunh qeou pepanerwtai, perfect passive indicative of panerow, to make manifest .
This God imparted righteousness is "apart from law" of any kind and all of grace (cariti) as Paul mentions in verse 24. But it is not a new discovery on the part of Paul, but "witnessed by the law and the prophets" (marturoumenh, present passive participle, upo tou nomou kai twn prophtwn), made plain continuously by God himself.
In Romans 3:21-31 Paul clearly defines righteousness that is imparted by the Grace of God.
JB |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2655
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | SS,
You asked:
"How many people can find in the Bible, the definition of what Righteousness is ?"
21 But now apart from the law, the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say , at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
But now apart from the law (nuni de cwris nomou). Paul now moves forward carefully in verses 21-31. In these following verses we see the nature of the God-kind of righteousness which is conveyed here. (dikaiosunh qeou pepanerwtai, perfect passive indicative of panerow, to make manifest .
This God imparted righteousness is "apart from law" of any kind and all of grace (cariti) as Paul mentions in verse 24. But it is not a new discovery on the part of Paul, but "witnessed by the law and the prophets" (marturoumenh, present passive participle, upo tou nomou kai twn prophtwn), made plain continuously by God himself.
In Romans 3:21-31 Paul clearly defines righteousness that is imparted by the Grace of God.
JB |
OK, I agree.
NOW...let's add other Bible defnitions to that.....
Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness.
119:173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law [is] my delight.
******************************************
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
QUESTION: Who are the 'we' Paul is refering to here ?
Are we agreed that 'Righteousness', is 'right-doing' ?
After all, we want to have the same righteousness Jesus Christ had, and HE did the right things, correct ? |
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JonMarie
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 409
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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mtimber : | Quote: | | Obedience is a dirty word in mainstream Christianity. |
that being the case, makes a loud statement regarding so called mainstream Christianity.
Are you familier with the 4th verse of "Trust and Obey" one of my all time favorite hymnns. It goes like this; But we never can know the delights of His love , until all on the alter we lay, for the favor He shows, and the joy He bestows, are for them who will trust and obey. |
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JonMarie
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 409
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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SS writes: | Quote: | | So then, why are people that claim to be Christians, reject Christ's command of correct observance of the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath ? |
(1.) Matthew 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(2.)John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
As I am sure you know, Christians are in different stages of growth and development;
1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
Why do you appear to be more hung up on the 4th commandment in particular, then people finding the Spirit of truth, who will guide them into all righteousness? |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: |
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SS
I do not disagree with your definition of righteousness but some how you must reconcile the free gift of eternal life and righteousness apart from the law with your theological position.
Here is just an idea.
In 1 Thessalonians 1 Paul addresses the Church.
Chapter 1 To all the saints. Implying those forgiven freely by the blood of Christ.
In Chapter 3:10 Paul makes another statement which is apart from salvation.
as we night and day keep praying most earnestly that we may see your face, and may complete what is lacking in your faith?
Then In Chapter 5:23 we see Paul's conclusion or climax to his thought.
(23) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Sanctify you (agiasai umas). First aorist active optative in a wish for the future. New verb in LXX and N.T. for the old word agizw, to render or to declare holy (agios), to consecrate, to separate from things profane. Wholly (oloteleis). Predicate adjective in plural (olos, whole, telos, end), not adverb olotelws.
Be preserved entirely (oloklhron thrhqeih). First aorist passive optative as a wish for the future. Note singular verb and singular adjective (neuter) showing that Paul conceives of the man as "an undivided whole" This is a prayer for the consecration of both body and soul . The adjective oloklhron is a predicate and is an old form and means complete in all its parts (olos, whole, klhros, lot or part). There is to be no deficiency in any part. Teleios (from telos, end) means final perfection. Without blame (amemptws)
The point is, salvation comes first, then the ability to be obedient follows.
I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me. prior to that point I can do nothing. For us to achieve holiness Hebrew 12:24
Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
In 1 Thessalonians 5 Paul prays that they are sanctified entirely or completely and then In Hebrews 12 we see the writer reaffirming that idea by say pursue peace with all men and sanctification for with out it no man shall see life.
JB |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: |
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MTimber,
Quote:
Obedience is a dirty word in mainstream Christianity.
I agree and I am not a main stream Christian.
JB |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2655
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | | As I am sure you know, Christians are in different stages of growth and development; |
Yes, exactly.
The rock bottom basics to Christian understanding is what constitutes sin.
I mean, after all, Salvation is suppose to be 'from' sin, right ?
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
My point is how can a person be 'saved' from sin, unless they understand the Biblcal defintion of what sin is ?
AND the 10 commandments, are the starting point of that understanding.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
| Quote: |
Why do you appear to be more hung up on the 4th commandment in particular, |
Because that is the ONLY one God made as a 'sign' to show a person's relationship to HIMSELF.....
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
| Quote: |
then people finding the Spirit of truth, who will guide them into all righteousness? |
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
My point here is that people need to study the whole Bible as though their very lives depended upon it.....BECAUSE IT DOES ! |
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james
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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#1.) The 1st reason Christians are so easily deceived by satan's suggestions, is lack of intense Bible study.
AND, that is the ONLY way to be Saved !
THIS STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. You have eliminated all the ignorant and unlearned (Acts 4:13), anyone who is illiterate from being saved. Scripture is clear that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. Salvation is through Christ ALONE.
Tell me, what "intense bible study" did the thief on the cross do before Christ promised him, he would be in heaven with Him? |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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James
You said: THIS STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. You have eliminated all the ignorant and unlearned (Acts 4:13), anyone who is illiterate from being saved. Scripture is clear that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. Salvation is through Christ ALONE.
Tell me, what "intense bible study" did the thief on the cross do before Christ promised him, he would be in heaven with Him?
Amen Brother.
JB |
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JonMarie
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 409
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I third that motion! |
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JonMarie
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 409
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Isa:57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Prov 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
Prov 22:4 By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2655
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | SS wrote........#1.) The 1st reason Christians are so easily deceived by satan's suggestions, is lack of intense Bible study.
AND, that is the ONLY way to be Saved ! |
| Quote: |
THIS STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. |
Don't tell me....Tell God, HE is wrong !
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
| Quote: |
You have eliminated all the ignorant and unlearned (Acts 4:13), anyone who is illiterate from being saved. Scripture is clear that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. Salvation is through Christ ALONE. |
OK, what do you have available to right now....Christ, in person , or HIS word, the Bible ?
| Quote: |
Tell me, what "intense bible study" did the thief on the cross do before Christ promised him, he would be in heaven with Him? |
Again, what did the thief have available to him, at that moment ?
Christ, in person, ...or the Scriptures of the OT ?
My point is........what is the difference between Christ, in person ....and HIS word, the Bible ?
Which do you have available today, as an intruction guide, to gaining eternal life ? |
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james
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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What we have right now is John 14:22-23. The manifested Christ through His church.
You can study the bible intensely as you wish, but apart from a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with Christ, a person is just a theologian in the end.
Did not Paul study the torah intensely under Gamaliel to become a Pharisees, was this intense study of the OT scriptures not done By most of the Jews and they REJECTED CHRIST. An intense study cannot be the only way to be saved. Study intensely is only profitable along with seeking a personal relationship, some do it for knowledge alone.
I say this because there are Atheist and other non-believers who study scriptures intensely to refute Christianity. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2655
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | What we have right now is John 14:22-23. The manifested Christ through His church.
You can study the bible intensely as you wish, but apart from a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with Christ, a person is just a theologian in the end.
Did not Paul study the torah intensely under Gamaliel to become a Pharisees, was this intense study of the OT scriptures not done By most of the Jews and they REJECTED CHRIST. An intense study cannot be the only way to be saved. Study intensely is only profitable along with seeking a personal relationship, some do it for knowledge alone.
I say this because there are Atheist and other non-believers who study scriptures intensely to refute Christianity. |
Without the Holy Spirit to give a person the right understanding of what the Scriptures are really saying, a person will ALWAYS come to the wrong conclusions.
An Atheist has no such help from God, therefore can ONLY come to the wrong conclusions.
There are 2 Individuals guiding any Bible study, at any given time-frame......
Satan......
or, God.
Unfortunatly, satan has the vast majority of the Christian world under his control.
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Sunday worship services, are just one mark of satan's power, over the modern Christian world. |
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james
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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SS,
I can say amen to everything you wrote in your last post except where you wrote Sunday worship is the Mark of the beast. There is no scripture that states that. Christ worshipped on other days than the Sabbath Himself. |
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