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JonMarie
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 376
Location: Pa.
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 Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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Lone: | Quote: | Now, if after knowing these things he(Paul) was to again turn and rend the church, cause destruction and refuse or reject the knowledge and the spirit given him...
that's truly up to God and his discretion.. |
No. In Hebrews 10 Paul writes (if you believe Paul wrote Hebrews)26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Do you think that born of God refers to after we are separated from our physical body?
After Paul was sent forth of the Holy Ghost, do you believe that he continued to sin?
2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
6And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Hi JonMarie..
that's so cool..
looks like what happened to Saul was about to happen to Elymus.. 
Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. (reminds me of Jonah)..
what was Elymus doing that was "worse" then what Saul had done?
8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Jesus came to save sinners...even devilish ones..
hugs
lon |
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JonMarie
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 376
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Lone, you missed the point I was trying to make, (intentionally?),but whatever did happen to Elymus? |
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JonMarie
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 376
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Looks like Paul is demonstrating true spiritual discernment, which by the way is completely different from judging. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | | Lone, you missed the point I was trying to make, (intentionally?),but whatever did happen to Elymus? |
I'm sorry JonMarie,
I must have missed the point, but not intentionally.. 
I think Elmyrus wasn't Elmyrus any more..like Saul wasn't Saul anymore..he became Paul..
so then whatever did happen to Elmyrus??
that's s good question..
whatever happened to Saul? 
| Quote: | | Looks like Paul is demonstrating true spiritual discernment, which by the way is completely different from judging. |
Yes I would agree..
Paul says..Hey Houston, I think we have a problem.. 
| Quote: | No. In Hebrews 10 Paul writes (if you believe Paul wrote Hebrews)26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. |
just hanging on to Elmyrus for a minute more..
I don't believe Elmyrus had the truth before Paul blasted him. Now once Elmyrus understood and recieved the truth and changed his ways...then Elmyrus (the old man) would disappear and the new man would begin to be born new.
| Quote: | | 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. |
If the truth of God and his love for us remains in us, then we can not sin, or transgess the spiritual laws of God.
(GW)Joh 6:63 Life is spiritual. Your physical existence doesn't contribute to that life. The words that I have spoken to you are spiritual. They are life.
(wandering here..but I just saw this..
I love it when that happens.. )
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
is there a difference between my words and the word?
ok back to the Q & A...
| Quote: | | Do you think that born of God refers to after we are separated from our physical body? |
No I believe born of God refers to when we recieve his word into our hearts, mind and soul. That the seeds(words) are planted in us and they take root, and change us from the inside out. Thus, creating a new man on the inside..spiritual.
| Quote: | | After Paul was sent forth of the Holy Ghost, do you believe that he continued to sin? |
I believe Paul struggled with sin..the old man, not willing to die. Even after we recieve the word with gladness and it is planted in us, there still are temptations to fall by the wayside, wander into thorns, and have a hard time overcoming the desires of the flesh our egos.
Paul said he died daily..and it was his flesh which had sin in it. His spirit was strong but the flesh was weak.
It's that part where he talks about doing the things he shouldn't do, and not doing the things he should do..
it's a struggle.. and when one is born of God or has his seed in him, then that one does not willfully or intentionally go out and do things against the spirit within him. But until one is made perfect there are temptations and struggles to overcome.
We don't always win. sometimes we lose. And that why Jesus came in the flesh..which was sinful flesh, so he could have compassion on us who also struggle in the flesh.
Jesus showed us that even though the temptation was in him to destroy the world and all flesh in it..he came to destroy the works of sin in the flesh itself.
And only he can destroy the works of sin in our flesh by sending his word and spirit into our flesh and disintegrating it from the inside..
The things which come out of the hearts of men is what defile a man, not what goes in his mouth..
and so when Jesus comes in our hearts he battles those things which were in our hearts destroying them with the fire of his spirit. And he causes us to judge ourselves, by really looking into our hearts and plucking out those things which cause us to err from the truth.
So I do not believe that Paul willfully or intentionally sinned after being saved. But was faced with temptations and tribulations as we all are. Even as Jesus himself was and overcame, so that he could come and help us overcome.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
The bible says that sin is the transgression of the law..
now there is a physical law and a spiritual law.
The physical law is carnal and is not subject to the spiritual laws of God. They are carnal.
so even though Jesus was born in the body of flesh sin under the carnal law. His spirit was not in enmity to God and his spiritual law. And so Jesus "knew" no sin, because he did what God in his heart told him to do.
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
I hear this when Paul says:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal (flesh), sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (the purging process and re-creating takes time)
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (thi is the battle on the inside)
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So even when one has been born again, if his heart is right with God, there is no way that he will intentionally or willfully fight against the spirit in him. But the evil or sin which is in the carnal flesh wars against the good or righteouusness of God's spirit in us.
It's alright if we fall down, it's alright if we are weak. The Lord knows this and that i why he sent us his spirit to help us when the battle gets real difficult for us.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
and what is his purpose?
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
| Quote: | | Lone, you missed the point I was trying to make, |
I'm hoping I didn't do it again JonMarie..
But if I did..work with me...we'll get there..
hugs
lone |
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JonMarie
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 376
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Lone:
| Quote: | just hanging on to Elmyrus for a minute more..
I don't believe Elmyrus had the truth before Paul blasted him. Now once Elmyrus understood and recieved the truth and changed his ways...then Elmyrus (the old man) would disappear and the new man would begin to be born new. |
Lone, did you really intend to say I don't want to believe... scripture indicates that Elymas had been exposed to the truth.
8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. 9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Saul who became Paul was not like an Elymus.
Titus 3:10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Luke 9:5And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
Elymus had heard the Word and rejected it. Saul, on the other hand, when confronted by Jesus, asked (who art thou) by asking this question, Saul indicates that he did not recognize, nor was familier with Jesus. Perhaps in his zeal to obey the law of the religious leaders of the day, of whom he was a cheif leader of the blind guides, he did not have exposure to the truth. Nicodemas, who was also a religious leader testified that he did not either.
John 3: 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
God is just and demands justice, otherwise God would have not sent His Beloved Son to suffer and die.
He would have just said, ok, everybodys in!
How can a just God possibly accept those who reject His Son?
If you are thinking of Romans 11:14? look at the context of which group of people are referenced by "every".
Also Paul references different stages of his spiritual maturity at different times, but one does not go from being a spiritually mature man to an immature spiritual babe, right?
Thanks for caring and being a gentle spirit Lone. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hi JonMarie,
I'm really enjoying this conversation..thankyou..
JonMarie, for some reason..I don't know why, but since the time I was very little, I have always been for the underdog, or the little guy that always seems to get a bum rap. Even in the first years of school whenever someone would pick on another in the class, I would always stand with the one getting picked on..
So this hmm compassion I have for those who are singled out and beat up has been in me from the time I was born. Don't know how it got there..but it's there none the less. And it sure is hard for me to fight against that.. 
| Quote: |
Lone, did you really intend to say I don't want to believe... scripture indicates that Elymas had been exposed to the truth.
8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. 9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? |
If Elymas had recieved the truth then he would not be full of all subtilty and mischief, and son of the devil and the enemy of righteousness, and perverting the right ways of the Lord..
He was trying to keep the deputy under the law. He didn't want to lose him to faith.
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Luk 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
so whatever happened to elymas after the Lord laid his hand upon him and caused him to be blind "for a season"..
Notice this blindness is only for a time..so then would it be rational to believe then that after this "season" he would be given sight?
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
Bar-jesus
Son of Joshua, the patronymic of Elymas the sorcerer (Act_13:6), who met Paul and Barnabas at Paphos. Elymas is a word of Arabic origin meaning “wise.”
Barjesus
son of Jesus or Joshua
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
I believe Elymas is one of those who believed they saw but was truly blind, so he was blinded so that he might see..
| Quote: | Titus 3:10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. |
How many times did the Lord admonish his disciples?
Mat 17:16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
I just think this is so cool..
Check out where Elymas was..LOL
Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
Act 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
Paphos
The capital of the island of Cyprus, and therefore the residence of the Roman governor. It was visited by Paul and Barnabas on their first missionary tour (Act_13:6). It is new Paphos which is here meant. It lay on the west coast of the island, about 8 miles north of old Paphos. Its modern name is Baffa.
look what Paphos means..lol
Paphos
which boils, or is very hot
He was aleady in hell...
Sergius Paulus
A “prudent man” (R.V., “man of understanding”), the deputy (R.V., “proconsul”) of Cyprus (Act_13:6-13). He became a convert to Christianity under Paul, who visited this island on his first mission to the heathen.
A remarkable memorial of this proconsul was recently (1887) discovered at Rome. On a boundary stone of Claudius his name is found, among others, as having been appointed (A.D. 47) one of the curators of the banks and the channel of the river Tiber. After serving his three years as proconsul at Cyprus, he returned to Rome, where he held the office referred to. As he is not saluted in Paul's letter to the Romans, he probably died before it was written.
Sergius
net
Paulus
small; little
(same as Paul)
a curator of a bank which netted little.. 
So Paul went to save a Roman heathen and ended up confronting a Jew which had a devil..and so..
2 dirty birds were killed with one stone..lol
or 2 birds were saved by one visit..
out of the frying pan and into the fire.. 
| Quote: | | Elymus had heard the Word and rejected it. |
I don't believe Elymas could have heard the word seeing it was Paul that brought it to a heathen nation which had not heard on his first mission, where Elymas was.
Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
| Quote: | | Thanks for caring and being a gentle spirit Lone. |
Ditto to you to JonMarie..
It takes one to know one..
hugs
lone |
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JonMarie
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 376
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Lone, have you ever written a lengthy reply and then submit, only to find out you forgot to log in?
Lone: | Quote: | | I'm really enjoying this conversation..thankyou.. |
Ditto Lone!
Lone: | Quote: | | So this hmm compassion I have for those who are singled out and beat up has been in me from the time I was born. Don't know how it got there..but it's there none the less. And it sure is hard for me to fight against that |
Why would you want to fight against compassion!
Psalm 111:4 He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion.
Psalm 145:8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
Lone: | Quote: | | Notice this blindness is only for a time..so then would it be rational to believe then that after this "season" he would be given sight? |
I suppose it depends on the condition of his heart in response, and the influence of the "deputy"
Lone: | Quote: | | I believe Elymas is one of those who believed they saw but was truly blind, so he was blinded so that he might see.. |
very possibly, but even after many of the pharisee saw the miracles Jesus performed, they loved their positions more. (but the humble aspect should be considered also)
The Lord did admonish his disciples in Matt 17, however Romans 3, is not refering to His (Jesus) disciples. This chapter has some of the most misquoted verses in all the bible.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles,[/b] that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one ( not one category of people, not Jews, not Gentiles, not any other group for that matter, not Romans, not Greeks, not any sect of a paticular denomation) Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So in other words do not count on a group or religion to save you, only Jesus can do that.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Lone: | Quote: | | I don't believe Elymas could have heard the word seeing it was Paul that brought it to a heathen nation which had not heard on his first mission, where Elymas was. |
I agree!
I admire the way you dig deep into scripture!
I stand corrected, thank you! |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Good Morning JonMarie..
| Quote: | | Lone, have you ever written a lengthy reply and then submit, only to find out you forgot to log in? |
Yes..
My trouble is, while going down the road I lose connection. And I forget to look at the little monitor icon to see if I'm connected, click submit..
and then..you are disconnected from the Internet..
so now what I do is highlight and copy almost every post before I submit it just in case. But I still forget sometimes.
| Quote: | Lone: Quote:
So this hmm compassion I have for those who are singled out and beat up has been in me from the time I was born. Don't know how it got there..but it's there none the less. And it sure is hard for me to fight against that
JonMarie: Quote
Why would you want to fight against compassion! |
Ha..I can't really. That's the thing. It would be like sinning willfully after having heard the truth.
What I mean is..The first thing that comes in my heart is there has to be something going on behind the scenes we're not seeing. The Lord is using these people as examples for a reason, and usually that reason is so we can see God's handiwork in them. So like Judas for instance, where I always hit a brick wall. Because I feel compassion for him. He was chosen for a purpose, but everyone hates him. But if he didn't do what needed to be done, then we wouldn't be where we are today.
So my compassion brings me into a lot of controversies and arguments..which I'm truly not wanting to get into confrontations.. 
But if I don't listen to my heart then I'm going against that compassion that's in there..and then I find my head is fighting with my heart...
and you know when you fighting with yourself it's hard to win..
so I feel compelled to dig, because I don't just want to believe something, I want to know it. That way I can stop fighting and just sit quiet, listen, and understand the whole plan God has planned. I may not understand it, it may take a long time to get an answer..But until my head and heart come in line with each other..I toss and turn on it.
Our human inclination is to see something bad and destroy it. And I believe God's inclination is to see something bad and make it good..
| Quote: | Lone:Quote:
Notice this blindness is only for a time..so then would it be rational to believe then that after this "season" he would be given sight?
JonMarie:Quote
I suppose it depends on the condition of his heart in response, and the influence of the "deputy" |
And see, we're not told what ever happened to Elymas after he was blinded and led away by others. However, we do have an example of the same thing happening to Saul. And we know that God is no respecter of persons. What's good for the goose..
so if God showed mercy on Saul who was the chiefest among sinners and changed his ways and used him for his good purpose, then why should we believe God did not do the same for Elymas?
I believe that possibly the end results of some are left out to see how we ourselves will weigh the situation.
To see where our hearts are, and if we were really paying attention to other examples God has used.
He gives us examples and then says..here, I'll give you this woman, this guy, and using the examples from before, now you go and see if you learned anything..
| Quote: | Lone:Quote:
I believe Elymas is one of those who believed they saw but was truly blind, so he was blinded so that he might see..
JonMarie:Quote
very possibly, but even after many of the pharisee saw the miracles Jesus performed, they loved their positions more. (but the humble aspect should be considered also) |
I don't believe that they were called or chosen at that time to be saved, but rather to be made examples and allowing us to see what it is we ourselves are faced with even in our own selves.
We all have doubts. We all question. If the law says this why do you do that. We were to do it this way or die, but you say if we do it that way we will live.
That's the same way with many teachings today. We are taught to hate the bad guys and show no mercy..let them burn in hellfire for all eternity. And if you disagree with traditional teachings then you will be put out of the church (synagogue).
Many Pharisees I believe would have followed Jesus but they were afraid they would have no place to call "home". They were afraid of being shunned the same way they had shunned others. They didn't want to face their own judgments they made on other people.
So out of fear they stayed.
But this also is an example..and it's the truth, because we do the very same things today. Only instead of Synagogues we have denominations that hold that same fear over their congregations. Believe how I teach you or we will excommunicate you, revoke your membership, give you to Satan.. 
So in their hearts they hold the truth, but in their flesh they fear the authorities and people over them.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Our mercy..that they may obtain mercy and not condemnation..that goes for Elymas, Judas, the Pharisees..all of them who were made examples of unbelief, so that we could have and learn mercy from God, so that in turn..what has been freely given to us, we can freely give to others..
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Awesome indeed!
| Quote: | Lone:Quote:
I don't believe Elymas could have heard the word seeing it was Paul that brought it to a heathen nation which had not heard on his first mission, where Elymas was.
JonMarie:Quote:
I agree!
I admire the way you dig deep into scripture!
I stand corrected, thank you! |
I thank YOU!
for walking with me through this lesson. And being patient with me..
The title of this thread is Hearing the Audible Voice of God.
And truly I believe that voice is heard in our hearts, and from our hearts he moves us to dig deeper into his word to find the treasures hidden in them.
And to search for and take hold of the spiritual fruit which he has given us for meat to feed us, and the leaves to heal us..and that we give this freely given fruit to the nations around us and feed them and heal them freely to.
so, now..I highlight..and copy..ok
check my signal..ok..
and submit..we'll see..
JonMarie:
lone |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 669
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| I have really enjoyed reading your exchanges! (Although I must admit Lone, it takes me some time to read some of your's! Just kiddin' ya'!) It's been helpful and I've learned something from ya'll's exchange. Thanks and God bless. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Pastor2022,
I'm tying to keep them shorter..
it takes me a while to reach a conclusion..and it shows itself in the length of my posts.
The last post was 3 times longer than what it is.. 
I cut out a whole bunch to keep it readable..
and reasonable..
I'll keep working on it..
hugs
lone |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5011
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Lone, I love you.
It was a very good thread.
You too JonMarie! Thank you,
Nobby
Last edited by Nobby on Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JonMarie
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 376
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Rom 11:36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. |
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JonMarie
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 376
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Lone, I have enjoyed our conversation, and if you wish to continue...
Lone: | Quote: | | I don't believe that they were called or chosen at that time to be saved, but rather to be made examples and allowing us to see what it is we ourselves are faced with even in our own selves. |
All of us are examples, all the time, good or bad.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Lone: | Quote: | | We are taught to hate the bad guys and show no mercy..let them burn in hellfire for all eternity. |
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
I do not find any scripture that suggests we hate the "bad guys".
Lone: | Quote: | Many Pharisees I believe would have followed Jesus but they were afraid they would have no place to call "home". They were afraid of being shunned the same way they had shunned others. They didn't want to face their own judgments they made on other people.
So out of fear they stayed. |
Matt 10:32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Lone: | Quote: | | But this also is an example..and it's the truth, because we do the very same things today. Only instead of Synagogues we have denominations that hold that same fear over their congregations. Believe how I teach you or we will excommunicate you, revoke your membership, give you to Satan.. |
As if they had that power or authority
Lone: | Quote: | | So in their hearts they hold the truth, but in their flesh they fear the authorities and people over them. |
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 14:26 In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.
Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
people are not saved by following a paticular denomination, only Christ can save us.
I've heard of several cases where the Mormon church kicked members out who disagreed with their teachings, some of which are outlandish, and told those people they will go to hell. Is it obvious how ridiculous that is? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Hi JonMarie,
| Quote: | Lone:Quote:
I don't believe that they were called or chosen at that time to be saved, but rather to be made examples and allowing us to see what it is we ourselves are faced with even in our own selves.
JonMarie:Quote:
All of us are examples, all the time, good or bad.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. |
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
I was looking up the word lump and came up with a cake of figs..or figs pressed together as a cake..and followed it to these verses..
Jer 24:1 The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD , after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.
Jer 24:2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.
Jer 24:3 Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.
Jer 24:4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 24:5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
Jer 24:6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Jer 24:8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:
Jer 24:9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.
Jer 24:10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.
Mar 11:11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
Mar 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
Mar 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Mar 11:16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mar 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Romans chapter 11..
concerning the evil figs and the branches or lump which was made for dishonour..and the reason why they were made that way by the potter, and how they are grafted back in.
The children are for signs: concerning proverbs or parables:
Eze 14:1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
Eze 14:2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; Eze 14:5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
Eze 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
Eze 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
Eze 14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Eze 14:10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
Eze 14:11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
Eze 14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 14:15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
Eze 14:16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
Eze 14:17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
Eze 14:18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
Eze 14:19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?
Eze 14:22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
Eze 14:23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. |
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