HOLY SPIRIT NOT GIVEN YET?

HeKkLeR · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:11 am Post subject:

Hi JB,

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

JB,

I can't possibly see how you can interpret this verse based on your understanding:

Num 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

See it says a man whom is the spirit. But the spirit mentioned here isn't capitilized (as I believe it should be). So my question to you is - who spirit is it that which is mentioned in that verse?

Paul

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

Here is another one JB:

Neh 9:30 Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands.

That is from the KJV Bible. Now the word "spirit" is not captilized there but it says by "thy" spirit? Who do you believe the "thy" is referring to? If you say it is God then wouldn't that mean the "spirit" is also God's? Also, if you say it isn't God then the thy prophets wouldn't be referring to His prophets either, correct?

This is the problem I see JB is that all these verses are refuting your belief.

Paul

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 516

Trettep
I am a man that will simply admit that I am wrong but not without serious inquiry. If I believe something it is usually because I have spent a lot of time studying it. Even after I have studied and developed Beliefs, people like Yehu and Plontius come along and shoot a hole in my tire and I gotta get out and fix it. I am thankful for them. Your argument on this subject is with out depth of inquiry. You need to take some time and study and try to avoid a surface type interpretation.

Trettep, I love you in the Lord, but I will say the same thing to you that I said to JimD. You are just plain wrong on this one.

In Christian love

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

JB,

Who is this verse referring to:

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Who is the one that God put His Holy Spirit within that brought His people out of the sea?

Paul

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 516

TreTTep,
Go back and read it again. It says, in the KJV, I will put My Spirit in the Midst of them.

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

So JB, at this point your position tells me that you believe that God entrusted men void of His Spirit to do His Work? That God's Spirit was only UPON them by not in them. If they can do God's Work without having His Spirit then this leads me to the next most obvious question - WHY Does one have to have the Spirit WITHIN them?

Paul

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 516

Tretepp,

Just because they don't experience the infilling of the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean that they aren't led by the Spirit. You said that you believe that God and Jesus and the Spirit are all the same.

Moses was led by a cloud

Exodus 13: By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.

Isaiah 6. God appeared to Isaiah in a dream.

God didn't abandon His People. He was there all the time.

I hope this helps.

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

45degreeN · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:05 am Post subject:

Maybe we have a definition issue here.

JB tell us just what you mean in depth as what the infilling is and why it is different than what the OT prophets experienced. Leave out the dogma please since we are willing to learn if you're willing to explain this phenomenon. Since clearly and without any confusion the OT plainly says that the holy spirit was in them.

So far it seems you are just splitting hairs, mighty fine ones at that.

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 516

45DegreeN,
When were the Disciples saved? If we begin there maybe this won't turn into a battle of right and wrong. Salvation begins at Revelation. Just simply saying that I trust in Jesus for my salvation isn't quite enough. James 2:19 the devil also believes and shudders.

In Matthew 16:17 we see that Peter had a Revelation experience. Was the Holy Spirit in him at that time? No.

I can tell someone about Jesus Christ, but they can only acknowledge His existence from a purely academic point of view if it is me telling them.

Jesus said, "Blessed are you Simon for flesh and blood didn't reveal this to you, but my Father who is in Heaven.

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon the Prophets to reveal His truth to them.

After Jesus rose from the Dead, He told the Disciples that the Holy Spirit dwelt with them but at some point the Holy Spirit would dwell in them. John 14:17

On the DAY of Pentecost, they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:22 We see God talking to Cornelius a God fearing Gentile. Notice that God was talking to him. He was saved. But it wasn't until Peter came that He received the Holy Spirit.

Let's see. Saved based on the outside influence of the Holy Spirit upon a person and filled with the Spirit as an act of God to empower His people.

Jesus said, But ye shall receive power.

In the Old testament, God worked mightily in the presence of His people. Not in His people. Judges 3:10 and the SPirit of the Lord came upon him. There are many Old Testament reference to the Holy Spirit working among His people. If peter didn't need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for salvation Revelation then whyt did the Old Testament people need the indwelling.

I hope that this is a good start

God Bless and Keep seeking the King
JB

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 516

Trettep,
Is the indwelling necessary and if so why?

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

Yehushuan · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject:

So trettep, are we to now believe that you have abandoned use of the LXX?

“ ‘ος WHO εχει HAS πνευμα SPIRIT εν IN εαυτω HIMSELF.

It is obvious this passage speaks of Joshua’s human spirit.

και AND ειλκυσας (1670 v-aai-2s) YOU DRAGGED επι ON αυτους (p-apm) THEM ετη (2094 n-npn) YEARS πολλα (4183 a-apn) MANY και AND επεμαρτυρω (v-imi-2s) WAS TESTIFYING FOR YOURSELF αυτοις (P-DPM) TO THEM εν IN πνευματι (n-dsn) SPIRIT σου (p-2gs) OF YOU εν χειρι (G5495 n-dsf) BY THE HAND προφητων (n-gpm) OF PROPHETS σου (P-2GS) OF YOU και AND ουκ NOT ηνωτισαντο (v-ami-3p) THEY GIVING EAR και AND εδωκας (1325 v-aai-2s) YOU GAVE UP αυτους (p-apm) THEM εν χειρι (5495 n-dsf) BY THE HAND λαων (2992 n-gpm) OF PEOPLE της (t-gsf) OF THE γης (1093 n-gsf) EARTH

Nehemiah 9:30 LXX “And you dragged on with them many years and were testifying for yourself to them in your spirit by the hand of your prophets and they not giving ear, you gave them up by the hand of the people of the earth.”

Again, this verse says nothing about the spirit being in the prophets, but that God was testifying in His Spirit by the hands of the prophets. It does not say the prophets were testifying in God’s Spirit. The prophets may have spoken the words, but the Spirit of God was itself testifying to the people.

(Now what was next on his list…)

Isa 63:11 JPS Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses: 'Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He that put His holy spirit in the midst of them?

Isa 63:11 RV Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? where is he that put his holy spirit in the midst of them?

Isa 63:11 YLT And He remembereth the days of old, Moses--his people. Where is He who is bringing them up from the sea, The shepherd of his flock? Where is He who is putting in its midst His Holy Spirit?

Isa 63:11 LXX και εμνησθη ημερων αιωνιων ‘ο αναβιβασας εκ της γης τον ποιμενα των προβατων που εστιν ‘ο θεις εν αυτοις το πνευμα το αγιον; (Do your own translation.)

Yehushuan

(I await your repudiation.)