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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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 Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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JB, are you of the belief that the Spirt of God is something separate from the Holy Spirit? I say this because they are NOT Separate entities. They are the same. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The very Spirit of the Father in Heaven Himself. And God fills others with His Spirit (Holy Spirit).
Paul |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Trettep,
Did you look up those verses I gave you on the Spirit of God being upon the people? Were they not Capitalized? Yes they were. There is a big difference between the spirit of Courage or the spirit of wisdom verses the Spirit of God. If you rely totally on the English translation you must start by looking for those key items. Unfortunately sometimes in translation some are accidentally capitalized anbd some aren't. But most of the time that is a very reliable starting point.
Yes, the Spirit of God and the Holy SPirit are the same. The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God came upon man in the Old Testament and entered into man in the New Testament.
Good luck getting your head around that thought. If you keep seeking truth, God will show you. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi JB,
Very interesting. 
| JB wrote: | | Genesis 41:37-39. Again we see that it isn't capitalized. |
"Spirit" sure is capitalized in my KJV. I just checked it again.
| Quote: | | Ah Exodus 35. 30-31 Some translations capitalize and some don't. The Word in it's original language is ruwach. It could mean anything from courage to strength but in this text it seems to suggest wisdom. |
So, where God Himself says, "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,"
... He doesn't really mean it? Is that a mistake, then? Are you suggesting that God did not fill him with the "spirit of God"?
So, "spirit of God" does not mean the Holy Spirit? 
| Quote: | | It could mean anything from courage to strength but in this text it seems to suggest wisdom. |
Well, is already written in there.  It is written on the right side of
And, do you plan to make a reply as to the Genesis 18 and Luke 1:66-68 verses that I provided?
Thanks in advance.  |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2455
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | Yehu, even though you pretend not to, I am sure you get my drift. This kind of communication is not communication at all. |
(And the above is?)
If somehow this was to communicate your views, don't waste the time. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2455
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| HeKkLeR wrote: | So, where God Himself says, "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship," ... He doesn't really mean it? Is that a mistake, then? Are you suggesting that God did not fill him with the "spirit of God"?
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Hey Hek,
God Himself did not say that. Here is just one more instance of the KJV translating in accordance with Ecclesiastical tradition. The LLX does NOT say "Spirit of God." Literally it says he was filled with the "Brimstone-Wisdom Spirit." God gave him great insight into the process of smelting and metalurgy to work with Gold, Silver and Brass. (See my above post.)
This shouldn't be lightly dismissed. (Or ignored as trettep seems to do with things he cannot fathom.)
Yehu
Now Luke 1 IS interesting, and will take more time to address.
“πνευμα του θεου” (Spirit of God) is a phrase Not used by Luke at all, whereas
“επλησθη πνευματος αγιου” (Filled with the Holy Spirit) is written ONLY by Luke. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Exodus 31:1-5 (NIV) Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship."
(KJV) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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The NIV, The Amplified Bible, Young's Literal Translation, The American Standard Version, and the New Living Translation all have "Spirit of God" in Exodus 31:3.
Hmmm...
And they all have God saying this Himself. Actually, every translation I have read says that. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2455
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| HeKkLeR wrote: | Hmmm...
And they all have God saying this Himself. Actually, every translation I have read says that. |
Yes, God Himself said that He filled Bezel. But with the BRIMSTONE-WISDOM SPIRIT, according to the LXX (the Septuagint).
I cannot overstress the fact that translations rely heavily upon tradition in order to have a buying public. Not to mention that for the most part, translations are funded by an existing church body, and God help the man who wishes to defy the catechisms of those with the money. (I found this out first hand.)
There are three separate traditions of the OT texts. Sorry, make that four – the LXX, The Masoretic texts, the Samaritan texts, and the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Masoretic Hebrew only dates from about 600 to 900 AD (YES AD !), while the Septuagint is much older.
Protestant tradition nearly dismisses the LXX, and the KJV heavily relied upon the Masoretic texts. We have yet to gauge the impact of the Dead Sea Scrolls. But as I said, I don’t do Hebrew. Suffice it to say, the LXX does NOT say Spirit of God, but that God filled him with the brimstone wisdom spirit.
πνευμα του θεου (pneuma tou theou) is how one writes "Spirit of God" in Greek.
But the LXX wrote πνευμα θειον (pneuma theion). Theou is possessive, but Theion is an adjective. If one looks through the LXX to find other occurrences of theion, one always sees Brimstone. (And I already posted these verses.) Bezel was blessed with the spirit of metallurgy.
Yehu
(But that doesn’t mean you can’t make your case elsewhere. There are some that would Genesis chapter one to conclude that Hitler had the Spirit of God in him.)
(PS: What I meant, was that God Himself did not say He filled Bezel with the Spirit of God.) |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Trettep,
Did you look up those verses I gave you on the Spirit of God being upon the people? Were they not Capitalized? Yes they were. There is a big difference between the spirit of Courage or the spirit of wisdom verses the Spirit of God. If you rely totally on the English translation you must start by looking for those key items. Unfortunately sometimes in translation some are accidentally capitalized anbd some aren't. But most of the time that is a very reliable starting point.
Yes, the Spirit of God and the Holy SPirit are the same. The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God came upon man in the Old Testament and entered into man in the New Testament.
Good luck getting your head around that thought. If you keep seeking truth, God will show you. |
JB captilization and punctuation are most often done by translators. I already got my thoughts on the fact that the Spirit of God discussed immensely in the Old Testament IS the Holy Spirit and that it did indeed fill the Prophets. I don't believe God would ever entrust His work unto those that are not filled with the Spirit nor do I believe one that isn't filled with the Spirit can do the work of God. I believe it contradicts scripture to believe that the Prophets can do the work of God without having a measure of His Spirit. For then those men would still be carnal and not subject to the law of God. I believe that only God can do God's Work and that is performed by Him via His Spirit dwelling within others.
Paul |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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A have two translations of the LXX and both seem to agree. Here is the Apostles version:
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with a divine spirit of wisdom, and understanding, and knowledge, to invent in every work,
Notice the Spirit is translated as a DIVINE spirit of wisdom. This is definately a portion of the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God).
Paul |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | (PS: What I meant, was that God Himself did not say He filled Bezel with the Spirit of God.) |
Ok.
But I will preach: | Quote: | And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2455
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Garbage translations in - Garbage theology out.
Yehu
This message brought to you by Bezel, patron saint of the metallurgist.
PS: Trettep, to base his faith on translators? Oh wait, I'm not confused. He is! On the one hand he dismisses capitalization as a fabrication of those nasty evil little translators, yet on the other hand commends them when they support his theology. My what a divine cup of coffee.
Why don't you actually go look how theion is matched in the KVJ? I gave you quite a number of verses dear fellow.
(And thank you kindly trettep for opening my eyes to the LXX as I can quite readily translate it for myself.) |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | JB said:
On the contrary Jim. You have made many excellent comments on other posts. But on this one, you are just plain off. I am not saying that to be critical |
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I must inform you that just because you, Yehu, and most of the religious world think the rest of us are off on this one, is by no means conclusive proof that we are. . Of course I have no illusions that you will not continue to think you are right, just as I will continue to think I am. Oh well, that's just the way it is 
PS, I forgot, Yehu is never wrong  |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Garbage translations in - Garbage theology out. |
My point, exactly!
| Quote: | | "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food" |
Last edited by HeKkLeR on Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
You said just because you and most of the religious world think that we are off on this one.
Jim I don't think you are off on this one. I know you are off on this one. Why do you kick against the goads?
Go back and look again. Ask yourself basic questions.
Why in many texts did the Holy Spirit come upon and not enter into?
Why did God Hide behind a cloud or a bush when He spoke with people?
Why did Moses see only the back of God's head instead of seeing God face to face?
Why did God say, no one can see me face to face and live?
Do we really stand in the presence of God or do we walk where He was present and are influenced by the power of where He was.
They followed God in a cloud. But yet we seem to think that God could dwell in those people at that time.
Jim, Go back and look again
Your Brother in CHrist
JB |
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