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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 438
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 Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | JB said:
If this doesn't suffice, then we will have to get into a more theological approach to this study. Which I am willing to do because I believe that it will be fun. |
We are so far apart on this issue, and set in our interpretation of it that, to me it would be like "beating a dead horse", not much fun in that, so unless you have something especially illuminating to share, I do not see any point. God bless you too. |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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The Holy Spirit is not a person, neither is God, or Jesus, only when Jesus was on the earth was He a person, they are three distinctions or names for the same Spirit, God. When the Old Testament speaks of the Spirit of the Lord, you could insert, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and get the same meaning. Ditto in the New Testament.
JB, or anyone, what do you think about the above part of my original post?
Did they teach you in theology 101 anything about, in Gods view of time, every thing was already accomplished from the beginning. In other words the basic things of law, love, grace , faith, salvation, Jesus death burial and resurrection, were already a done deal? But we being mortal get it all tangled up in our time and dispensations, thinking God to be different from one time to another, simply because of our lack of comprehension. |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
I have a lot that I could share on this subject, but I am not sure that you are ready for it. You have been given sufficient evidence on the topic and still refuse to accept it. I know that your respect for Yehu's knowledge is great and he even presented thoughts in opposition to yours. I am not sure that I can say anything that would change your mind and your heart on this and since it doesn't impact our (yours and mine) relationship with Christ, I just don't see the importance of beating the dead horse anymore.
God Bless and looking forward to our next debate. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
I would just like to add a little of what God's Word says...
| JB wrote: | JimD,
By saying that He dwelt in humanity before Pentecost then what you are saying, in essence, is that the Holy Spirit can dwell in unclean vessels. That just isn't the case. It took the shed blood of Christ to wash away your sins. |
Luke 1:66-68
67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has come and has redeemed his people.
| Quote: | | It also teaches that Jesus didn't have to die for our sins, again that just isn't the case. |
The Hebrews had a promise a long time ago. They even had things like Sin Offerings and stuff. You might want to read about it... the Bible would be a good place to start your study. 
Hey, Check this out  :
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.
...
20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
And this :
22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
...
26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
...
31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
| Quote: | Tretepp, Show me where the Holy Spirit, not the spirit of man, dwelt in humanity in the Old Testament.
This is taught in theology 101.
God bless you as you reconcile this error. |
I'm not trettep, but how about something like this?
Genesis 18
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
| Quote: | | I am a firm believer that the Holy Spirit came upon Old Testament people. Not in. |
This is what God Himself says about some of the Old Testament people:
Exodus 31:2-4
See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
And what Moses has to say about it:
Exodus 35:30-31
And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
32 And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Oh... and even Pharaoh  :
Genesis 41:37-39
38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
39 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:
And let us not forget Nebuchadnezzar  :
Daniel 4:18This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
Nor his son Belshazzar  :
Daniel 513 Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father brought out of Jewry?
14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee.
Oh well... sorry to disturb the conversation... |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2455
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | As you well know there are a lot of people out there who know Greek, claim to hear from God, and have enviable educations but have every tangled up mess of theology you can imagine. |
Hit a nerve, did I?
| JimD wrote: | | I am depending heavily on on the Holy Spirit to lead me, not my own strength or abilities. |
I thought you denied God would speak by voice to a person? So on the one hand you desire to be led, but on the other you despise the mechanism? How’s that working out?
You are more than welcome to provide an alternate translation to what I’ve provided (if you can) or submit a thesis as to why my translation is incorrect (but you haven’t) so besides you having such histrionics over the use of candles, have you anything else to provide of substance?
Darth Yehu
(And some, like Brother John, actually have a sense of humor to appreciate the mannerisms within my posts. I do not post for you to take me seriously. "Darth Yehu" was a moniker thrust upon me last year.) |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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HeKkLer,
We meet again. Interestingly enough you to seem to think that the Holy Spirit dwellt in people in the Old Testament.
Daniel 5:14 Did you notice that the spirit in that text wasn't capitalized? There is a reason for that. Any Honorable interpreter of this text would capitalize the (s) in spirit if it were in reference to the Holy Spirit. I would check that out if I were you.
The same is true in Daniel 4:18.
Genesis 41:37-39. Again we see that it isn't capitalized.
Ah Exodus 35. 30-31 Some translations capitalize and some don't. The Word in it's original language is ruwach. It could mean anything from courage to strength but in this text it seems to suggest wisdom.
Again this is a weak argument.
Exodus 31:2-4 It isn't capitalized.
Shame on those Bible people who failed to add the right letters in these Biblical texts.
 
Do I need to go any further on this subject?
The Holy Spirit came upon people in the Old Testament. I have posted many Old Testament quotes that strongly support this argument and every time the Spirit came upon the people the (s) in Spirit was capitalized. Why would they capitalize it there and fail to capitalize it in the place in which the scriptures seem to suggest the spirit is within man?
God Bless you my friend and Keep seeking the King |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hey JB, give me a verse from the Old Testament that shows the word Spirit in the manner that you believe is God's Holy Spirit.
Paul |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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trettep,
Judges 3:10, Judges 6:34, Judges 11:29, Judges 14:6,
Judges 14:19, Judges 15:14, 1 Samuel 16:13, 1 Samuel 19:20, Isaiah 59:21
There are a a lot more. God didn't abandon His people. He came upon them.
God Bless my friend and keep seeking the King |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | trettep,
Judges 3:10, Judges 6:34, Judges 11:29, Judges 14:6,
Judges 14:19, Judges 15:14, 1 Samuel 16:13, 1 Samuel 19:20, Isaiah 59:21
There are a a lot more. God didn't abandon His people. He came upon them.
God Bless my friend and keep seeking the King |
Thanks JB. Now I have looked up your word for Spirit and here is a verse showing one being filled with that same Spirit:
Exo 31:3 And I have filled4390 him with the spirit7307 of God,430 in wisdom,2451 and in understanding,8394 and in knowledge,1847 and in all manner3605 of workmanship,4399
Now how can you argue that nobody in the Old Testament was filled with the Holy Spirit? That verse uses the same word for Spirit that your verses use.
Paul |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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trettep,
In my last post I addressed that verse. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | trettep,
In my last post I addressed that verse. |
I know you said it wasn't capitalized but it is here:
Exo 31:3 and I fill him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all work,
So if you think that negates that this Spirit mentioned here is the Holy Spirit then I think your wrong obviously and think your giving yourself reasons to discount this truth.
Paul |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2455
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| trettep wrote: | | Now how can you argue that nobody in the Old Testament was filled with the Holy Spirit? That verse uses the same word for Spirit that your verses use. |
My word, trettep, are you slipping? Why does the LXX have the word ‘God’ in the accusative case and not the genitive case if “OF God” is supposedly meant?
How come the LXX did NOT write “πνευμα του θεου” as Paul did in 1 Cor. 3:16?
But rather wrote, “πνευμα θειον”? Perhaps because it was not the Spirit OF God in Exodus 31:3? Isn’t it you who say the LXX was the Apostle’s Bible and should be held in preeminence over all other OT’s?
Exo 31:3 και AND ενεπλησα FILLED (AAI 1S) αυτον HIM πνευμα SPIRIT θειον (adj) BRIMSTONE σοφιας WISDOM και AND συνεσεως και επιστημης εν παντι εργω
You might want to take a look at Gen. 19:24 and Deu. 29:23 and Psalm 11:6 and Isa. 30:33 and Isa. 34:9 and Eze. 38:22 wherein you find θειον does NOT mean God, but is, rather, translated BRIMSTONE.
Bezaleel was blessed with an understanding of BRIMSTONE WISDOM “to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass….”
By the way, you might want to look up the ENGLISH word bezel. The bezel was invented by him.
Yehushuan |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehu, even though you pretend not to, I am sure you get my drift. This kind of communication is not communication at all. |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | [quote="JB"]JimD,
I have a lot that I could share on this subject, but I am not sure that you are ready for it. |
In other words you do not agree with anything I say |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
JimD says, "In other words you do not agree with anything I say".
On the contrary Jim. You have made many excellent comments on other posts. But on this one, you are just plain off. I am not saying that to be critical.
I would rather be wrong and learn than to be right and not gain new insights. I have certainly been wrong in the past. But not on this one.
Your friend in Christ
JB |
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