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What did Yeshua mean by this Quote?


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Niall
Big Goldfish



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74

Location: Columbia SC
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:09 am    Post subject: What did Yeshua mean by this Quote? Reply with quote
Yeshua wrote:
Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.


This one hits home for me. I must admit during my long journey I spent much time in the disturbed state Confused or disgusted .

What are your thoughts on what Yeshua meant?
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45degreeN
King Kong



Joined: 02 Aug 2005

Posts: 2462

Location: Salem Oregon
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Can you cite references? Translation?
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Brother John
Little Goldfish



Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51

Location: Kansas
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:12 am    Post subject: What's the source? Reply with quote
Interesting quote!

Where can I turn in the Bible to find where Jesus said this? W/out being able to read it w/in whatever context it is found in, I cannot give a decent analysis or posit any good opinion.

Thank you!

Your Brother
John
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Niall
Big Goldfish



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74

Location: Columbia SC
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's from the Gospel of Thomas...
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy



Joined: 26 Mar 2005

Posts: 5901

Location: Memphis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Now I see what you mean by Gnostic Christian Wink
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Niall
Big Goldfish



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74

Location: Columbia SC
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
FFT wrote:
Now I see what you mean by Gnostic Christian Wink

ta da! Very Happy The Nag Hammadi Library has some good stuff in it.......
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Brother John
Little Goldfish



Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51

Location: Kansas
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:52 am    Post subject: ah.... Reply with quote
Niall wrote:
It's from the Gospel of Thomas...


oh.
Well, then it's easy...
Jesus didn't mean anything by it, because HE didn't say it.

The Gospel of Thomas is not cannon, and for very good reasons.

You'd be better off asking why we think the author (human) of that book would want people to believe that Jesus would have said that.

Thanks

Your Brother
John
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Niall
Big Goldfish



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74

Location: Columbia SC
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: ah.... Reply with quote
Brother John wrote:
Niall wrote:
It's from the Gospel of Thomas...


oh.
Well, then it's easy...
Jesus didn't mean anything by it, because HE didn't say it.

The Gospel of Thomas is not cannon, and for very good reasons.

You'd be better off asking why we think the author (human) of that book would want people to believe that Jesus would have said that.

Thanks

Your Brother
John


I'm not being disrespectful, but do you know how the Canon was created? BTW humans wrote the books of the Canon. Not only that, but humans that couldn't read, even copied scriptures. What you have in many instances is copies of the copies of the copies, which contain many errors and contradictions. Humans created the Canon. Constantine wasn't devine...

Also the Book of Thomas is one of the earliest scriptures.

I would imagine Yeshua said alot more than what is contained in the Canon.

And how would you know Yeshua didn't say it?
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HeKkLeR
King Kong



Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 2277

Location: Europe
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shocked Shocked Shocked

And the truth emerges... Rolling Eyes
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Niall
Big Goldfish



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74

Location: Columbia SC
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
HeKkLeR wrote:
Shocked Shocked Shocked

And the truth emerges... Rolling Eyes


It does. I do my best at it....

Now would you care to explain your point verses eye rolling?
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Brother John
Little Goldfish



Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51

Location: Kansas
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject: Time & Effort Vs. Desire Reply with quote
First off:
As you are the starter of this thread, I don't want to hijack it and turn it into an appologetics joust on the validity (or LACK thereof) for the Gospel of Thomas or Dan Brown's MYTH that it was Constantine who arbitrarily chose or forced the chosing of the New Testament cannon. He didn't. The cannon was established long before him.

I think both of these points could be debated well, but it's OFF the topic of your thread.

Thanks

Your Brother
John

PS: Yes, I know how the Bible's books came about to be collected into what we now know and accept as the Bible, God's Authoritative Word.
I'm quite comfortable (and comforted) by the process.

don't believe the sensationalistic hype.
Spurious books were discarded for good reasons...
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Niall
Big Goldfish



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74

Location: Columbia SC
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Time & Effort Vs. Desire Reply with quote
Brother John wrote:
First off:
As you are the starter of this thread, I don't want to hijack it and turn it into an appologetics joust on the validity (or LACK thereof) for the Gospel of Thomas or Dan Brown's MYTH that it was Constantine who arbitrarily chose or forced the chosing of the New Testament cannon. He didn't. The cannon was established long before him.

I think both of these points could be debated well, but it's OFF the topic of your thread.

Thanks

Your Brother
John

PS: Yes, I know how the Bible's books came about to be collected into what we now know and accept as the Bible, God's Authoritative Word.
I'm quite comfortable (and comforted) by the process.

don't believe the sensationalistic hype.
Spurious books were discarded for good reasons...

I can respect your wishes. But it is not Dan Brown that provided me with the information on Constantine. It was research that I did myself. I choose to try and find, then evaluate the sources of my convictions.

I was responding to your dismissing the Gospel of Thomas as something other than what it was. It's been validated as well as any gospel in the bible.
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Brother John
Little Goldfish



Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51

Location: Kansas
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Time & Effort Vs. Desire Reply with quote
Niall wrote:

I can respect your wishes. But it is not Dan Brown that provided me with the information on Constantine. It was research that I did myself. I choose to try and find, then evaluate the sources of my convictions.

I was responding to your dismissing the Gospel of Thomas as something other than what it was. It's been validated as well as any gospel in the bible.

I see.

Please let me explain myself: I'm sorry if I offended you by offhandedly dismissing your faith in the "Gospell of Thomas". I didn't do it to offend you.

I do however disagree strongly that:
A: I dismissed it as "something other than what it was", what I did was dismiss your claim of it's validity as a 'true' gospel.
B: It has been 'validated' in any way at all.

of the earliest church fathers, who'd already chosen and codified what scriptures were accepted, long before the "official cannon" concept was even created, only a couple even mention the "Gospel of Thomas"...and they each considered it "Spurious" and "Heretical".
Eusebius of Caesarea’s (260AD) list of “Heretical books” he states this: ((By the way, this is a cut and paste, not my own words:
Quote:
Now all these would be among the disputed books; but nevertheless we have felt compelled to make this catalogue of them, distinguishing between those writings which, according to the tradition of the Church, are true and genuine and recognized, from the others which differ from them in that they are not canonical, but disputed, yet nevertheless are known to most churchmen. [And this we have done] in order that we might be able to know both these same writings and also those which the heretics put forward under the name of the apostles; including, for instance, such books as the Gospels of Peter, of Thomas, of Matthias, or even of some others besides these, and the Acts of Andrew and John and the other apostles. To none of these has any who belonged to the succession of ecclesiastical writers ever thought it right to refer in his writings.
Moreover, the character of the style also is far removed from apostolic usage, and the thought and purport of their contents are completely out of harmony with true orthodoxy and clearly show themselves that they are the forgeries of heretics. For this reason they ought not to be reckoned among the spurious books, but are to be cast aside as altogether absurd and impious.


Even EARLIER than this, Origin’s commentary on the “man made” Gospels, written in his homily on Luke: (185 AD) (((again, a cut and paste)))
Quote:
I know a certain gospel which is called 'The Gospel according to Thomas' and a 'Gospel according to Matthias', and many others have we read - lest we should in any way be considered ignorant because of those who imagine that they posses some knowledge if they are acquainted with these. Nevertheless, among all these we have approved solely what the Church has recognized, which is that only the four Gospels should be accepted.


These are pretty much the ONLY references to this book, and both cast it aside as man made, spurious and heretical.

Christ's Bride has been battling against damning heresies like Gnositicism, which works counter to the gospel of grace in our Lord Jesus Christ, from the churches very inception amongst the apostles. The Apostle 'that Jesus Loved'....John, wrote specifically to counter the gnostics.
Jesus told us that others would come and try to corrupt the true message...........and as with all of His other promises, it came true right on time.

We've been dealing with it ever since.

I think that the text of the so-called "Gospel of Thomas" is an Historical curiosity...and interesting in what it tells us of the Churches struggles and the attempted infiltration of other man made creeds. It can also cast light on the the culture of the Syrian area around 150, the date most reputable scholars agree was when this work was authored.
For instance: It is sexist, espousing that women aren't "Worthy of Life" ....... which runs directly counter to Christ's message!
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Brother John
Little Goldfish



Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51

Location: Kansas
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
HeKkleR-

On the "emergence of truth"....
Good observation my friend, but it goes even further than that.

The truth more than "emerges", it "Emerged"....and became flesh, and tabernacled amongst us. Jesus told us himself that HE IS "The way, the TRUTH and the Life"...
and he's right.

....the Light shone in the darkness, and the darkness (Sin, error and falsehood) did not, has not and will not, because it cannot, over come it. (defeat, thwart or pollute it)

I think it's VERY crucial to study the Holy Scriptures and to define what they are AND what they are not; what message God DOES tell us through them, and what He has not.

Your Brother
John
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HeKkLeR
King Kong



Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 2277

Location: Europe
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Brother John wrote:
HeKkleR-

On the "emergence of truth"....
Good observation my friend, but it goes even further than that.


Beautiful. Wink

Niall wrote:
HeKkLeR wrote:
Shocked Shocked Shocked
And the truth emerges... Rolling Eyes



It does. I do my best at it....

Now would you care to explain your point verses eye rolling?


Genesis 18:21
    "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

    Genesis 19:5-7
    And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

    6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

    7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.


You know... one thing that I understand from that story? It is that wickedness shows its head without a calling.

A few others are: And the truth emerges to bring to light all things hidden.

And the Lord's fire burns away the perversion.

Let God be true, and every man a liar.

God's Word stands on Its Own.

That is what I meant.
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