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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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 Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | Personally, I can’t perceive why on earth anyone would ever wish to deign to any Catholic declaration of canon while at the same time denigrating their doctrine of Salvation, as if God were more interested in publishing a book than in saving souls.
Yehu |
I know where you are coming from.
I have less against the Catholic church than you might think.
BUT: Though they kept FINE records that are good for research, their theology is off.
that's all....
BTW: Look up the third council of Carthage.
THAT is when they decided on their OFFICIAL cannon, and it was OVER a Millenia.....and then a few centuries, earlier than the counil of trent!!!!!!!
Only a Millenia and some off.....
that's not TOO off.....
is it?
Your Brother
John |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2745
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: | BTW: Look up the third council of Carthage.
THAT is when they decided on their OFFICIAL cannon, |
Might you be a monk or Priest?
This is hardly an endorsement of the third council of Carthage by the Roman Catholic Church. To the contrary it is a repudiation of the canon.
And just to note, I’ve already applied the year 367 to the first list of the 27 books currently used. A council in 397 is most certainly not an earlier authority.
One might better appeal to the Council of Rome in 382 AD.
Yehushuan
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: ha ha ha ha ha ha..... |
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a Monk??
Me??
Nah....
Priest??????
NO WAY!
Though I DO admire some things about these men and their church, I disagree heartily with some things they cling too AND:
1. Note the earlier reference to my children. It wasn't metaphorical.
2. Note my earlier reference to catholic theology being wrong.
No, "Brother John" was something I was called BACK IN THE DAY, when I was a believer in the Gnostic Christian Path and a member of four different "Esoteric Orders"... including one that is steeped in magick. All of these I've denounced now as I've learned the TRUTH, and HE set me free. This path down the False Face of Faith (Gnostic, Esoteric and Magick) went pretty far. My name was well known in certain circles in these matters....not "Famous", but at the very least....a teacher of the works of commentators on popular occult works. (((Sound ODD? It was! I didn't know it at the time, but now ... I do.)))
That path is DEAD to me now, and I'm all the better for it.
It began when I entered college....
as did my nickname. I was always off to Bible studies and Church and then these esoteric groups. Most of the guys on my dorm were catholic (99% not "practicing") and they thought that I was studying to be a priest or something, they just didn't know the REAL nature of what I was doing, though my room-mate did. No, I took care of most of them when they'd come stumbling back onto the dorm LATE at night and throwing up on everything ((including some of my favorite tomes)). I'd clean them up, take care of them and such...
so they started calling me "Brother John", as I was a "Christian" (as far as they knew) and to them....I was "my brother's keeper".
I Really like the nickname! It fits my outlook on the brotherhood of man and our duty & honor to Love each other.
though I'm not a Monk, I am bald like one, and I do love WINE & CHEESE!  But you couldn't keep me from talking long enough for me to keep a vow of silence for a DAY...and you couldn't keep me from LUSTING after my wife like there's NO tomorrow  ...so I couldn't be a priest either.
Besides: I'm NOT catholic, and I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE being a REAL father!
_______________________________________
Enough about me and my past, it is PAST
_______________________________________
This man's take on the council of Carthage:
So what?
I'm not at all concerned with what the current catholic church ((or even this ONE Catholic author)) thinks about the importance of the third council of Carthage.
Here's the FACTS about it though, apart from anyones OPINION on it's import:
1. It occurred on the 28th day of August, year of our Lord 397. a SHORT 84 years after Christianity was 'legalized' throughout the Roman Empire.
2. It was convened to express what the existing church of the day thought was THE cannon worth knowing and worshiping by...and trusting for their intake of TRUTH.
3. In it ALL ((EMPHASIS = ALL)) of the current 27 New Testament books that WE recognize, and that the Catholic Church and Protestant Churches alike recognize as the Authoritative Word of God.......was fully agreed upon without any dissent, hesitation or argument.
ALL
Oh yeah....they also agreed upon the Old Testament, and the Apocrypha....which Martin Luther didn't agree on.
the Apocrypha is a different issue altogether.
So while Dr. Horne might disagree with the "authority" of these men at Carthage...
I'd LOVE to hear him come out and say that they're conclusions were "Wrong".
...his own beloved Roman Church would demand that he recant & repent or be pronounced anathema!
NOTE: Though this ROMAN Catholic Dr. doesn't like to admit it, Northern Africa of that day was the Christian Mecca and center of Christian education, not Rome. So the fact that these men were from "Africa" is a boast, not otherwise. Should we poo-poo most of their convocations that have been held since due to the fact that generally 90% of their make up were ONLY Italian? The number of attendees was HIGHLY significant, due to the fact that the Church was still relatively small and wide spread at the time...they had NO cars or transportation like we are used too and their means of communication LIGHT YEARS behind those of later Rome. Just 85 years earlier than this convocation, BEING a Christian was a CRIME throughout the Roman Empire, punishable by being tortured to DEATH! Then in 313 Constantine I issued the "Edict of Milan" making Christianity LEGAL.
SO.....
in the final analysis...
the Christian World, according to the EARLIEST written authorities, agreed upon their being ONLY 4 accepted "Gospels" = Matthew, Mark, Luke & JOHN...and attested to this as early as 160 AD....though they knew of others CLAIMING to be Gospels as well.
this was ratified in 397 AD at Carthage
and RE-ratified later at Trent.....etc. etc.
WIKIPEDIA THIS...
Your Brother
John
PS: Though I tease about it, I like WIKIPEDIA too.
It's good stuff....usually. NOT infallible...
that's the Bible! |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: What did Yeshua mean by this Quote? |
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| Niall wrote: | | Yeshua wrote: | | Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. |
This one hits home for me. I must admit during my long journey I spent much time in the disturbed state  .
What are your thoughts on what Yeshua meant? |
regardless of translation or who wrote it or whether it's "canon" or not..this is how I read it..
Those who seek the truth should not stop seeking until they find it. And when they find it, it will change their world. As their world or outlook is being changed with new truths and understandings, they will marvel and stand in awe of the truth..and the knowledge of that truth will reign over all.
just sharin my hmm.."interpretation" of it..
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2745
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: ha ha ha ha ha ha..... |
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| Brother John wrote: | | No, "Brother John" was something I was called BACK IN THE DAY, when I was a believer in the Gnostic Christian Path and a member of four different "Esoteric Orders"... including one that is steeped in magick. |
You win, I stand speechless. (So Naill and you have "history"?)
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Niall, maybe there is a Gnostic Dicussion forum somewhere on the internet where someone might know the answer to your question.
Reading your "quote" supposedly said by Yeshua, it doesn't even seem to make sense. I am sure gnostics have attached some mystical meanig to it though.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: Re: What did Yeshua mean by this Quote? |
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| Niall wrote: | | Yeshua wrote: | | Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. |
This one hits home for me. I must admit during my long journey I spent much time in the disturbed state .
What are your thoughts on what Yeshua meant? |
Hi Niall,
| Zathrus wrote: | Niall, maybe there is a Gnostic Dicussion forum somewhere on the internet where someone might know the answer to your question.
Reading your "quote" supposedly said by Yeshua, it doesn't even seem to make sense. I am sure gnostics have attached some mystical meanig to it though. |
Hey Zathrus,
it would seem to me, that the quote left by Niall, could possibly have something to do with:
Ecclesiastes 112 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
_________________
Peace
The HeKkLeR |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: |
You win, I stand speechless. (So Naill and you have "history"?) |
I can only speak for myself:
I DO have a BIG testimony.
IF God can change ME..........
.......HE can change ANYONE! 
I was a fool who felt a STRONG pull toward God, but I first went through the period in which I didn't understand God's "REAL" mysteries.
The 'mystic fool' hears God's voice that calls everyone to Him...but then chases HARD in the WRONG direction to seek it's source, and they begin to mistake their own lost soul for the source. They turn inward to their own LOST guidance and to the works of other men who've done the same throughout the ages...and left a record of their human musings to entertain the hopes of others that they'll find God in directions that amuse and confuse instead of HIS true enlightening word.
The 'mystic fool' doesn't follow God, but the "Ineffable" man made concept. Not ineffable because of it's deep mystery, but because of it they CREATE a God in the image of their own hopes, and then form their theosophy around that...
and not around the TRUTH.
The mystic FOOL begins with his conclusions and then forms his questions and pursuit from that basis, so that in the end you don't have a dog called by its master to its next meal and loving grooming, you have a dog chasing its own tail, thinking it will find its next meal from it's own efforts!
so I first sloshed through a LOT of Man Made mess first. Then God came to me and straightened ME out. Now I don't look w/in myself for Wisdom, I drink from the Living Spring.
Don't worry
I'm better now.
((Thanks to God, and some GOOD leadership he set in my path))
Your Brother
John
Last edited by Brother John on Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Re: ha ha ha ha ha ha..... |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | Brother John wrote: | | No, "Brother John" was something I was called BACK IN THE DAY, when I was a believer in the Gnostic Christian Path and a member of four different "Esoteric Orders"... including one that is steeped in magick. |
You win, I stand speechless. (So Naill and you have "history"?) |
History? Not really. I'm not of the same cut of gnostics that BJ was involved with. I only consider myself a gnostic-Christian from a very fundamental definition.
gonsis = knowledge as taught by the Christ
Christian = personal experience with the Christ
A very simple philosophy. Not well accepted by Christians or Gnostics.
_________________
The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Brother John wrote: | | Yehushuan wrote: |
You win, I stand speechless. (So Naill and you have "history"?) |
I can only speak for myself:
I DO have a BIG testimony.
IF God can change ME..........
.......HE can change ANYONE!
I was a fool who felt a STRONG pull toward God, but I first went through the period in which I didn't understand God's "REAL" mysteries.
The 'mystic fool' hears God's voice that calls everyone to Him...but then chases HARD in the WRONG direction to seek it's source, and they begin to mistake their own lost soul for the source. They turn inward to their own LOST guidance and to the works of other men who've done the same throughout the ages...and left a record of their human musings to entertain the hopes of others that they'll find God in directions that amuse and confuse instead of HIS true enlightening word.
The 'mystic fool' doesn't follow God, but the "Ineffable" man made concept. Not ineffable because of it's deep mystery, but because of it they CREATE a God in the image of their own hopes, and then form their theosophy around that...
and not around the TRUTH.
so I first sloshed through a LOT of Man Made mess first. Then God came to me and straightened ME out. Now I don't look w/in myself for Wisdom, I drink from the Living Spring.
Don't worry
I'm better now.
((Thanks to God, and some GOOD leadership he set in my path))
Your Brother
John |
Very well put HeKkLeR. Thank you for the time and effort
you put into finding the above quote. Very similar to Yeshua's quote.
Thanks!
_________________
The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | Niall, maybe there is a Gnostic Dicussion forum somewhere on the internet where someone might know the answer to your question.
Reading your "quote" supposedly said by Yeshua, it doesn't even seem to make sense. I am sure gnostics have attached some mystical meanig to it though. |
I don't believe there's really a mystical meaning to it. Its something that I actually lived to see to fruition. I wasn't aware of this quote, nor what gnosis meant until experiencing exactly what the quote stated. I stumbled onto the Nag Hammadi library after searching information that I received in an epiphany from the Christ.
Listening to the Christ has opened my eyes and provided me with a peace that I never experienced in the modern Christian environment. Having complete faith was never an option for me, and still isn't. I'm on a need to know basis 
_________________
The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | | Listening to the Christ has opened my eyes and provided me with a peace that I never experienced in the modern Christian environment. |
But the quote in the opening post does not say that the one who finds will experience peace. It says the opposite.
While most of the rest of us here who have found Christ do believe we will reign or are reigning with Him, and marvel at His grace and truth, I don't think most of us, and apparently you as well, would say that finding Christ has disturbed us. Like you, it has brought peace to our lives.
Could it be that Thomas misunderstood what Jesus really said? Or maybe he wasn't there when Jesus said this and heard it secondhand, and as stories tend to do , it got mixed up in the retelling? 
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Niall
Big Goldfish
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Columbia SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Niall wrote: | | Listening to the Christ has opened my eyes and provided me with a peace that I never experienced in the modern Christian environment. |
But the quote in the opening post does not say that the one who finds will experience peace. It says the opposite.
While most of the rest of us here who have found Christ do believe we will reign or are reigning with Him, and marvel at His grace and truth, I don't think most of us, and apparently you as well, would say that finding Christ has disturbed us. Like you, it has brought peace to our lives.
Could it be that Thomas misunderstood what Jesus really said? Or maybe he wasn't there when Jesus said this and heard it secondhand, and as stories tend to do , it got mixed up in the retelling? |
You might be confusing what the quote says and what I received from the epiphany with the quote. I received the internal peace from the epiphany not the quote. Something I deeply searched for.
The quote merely reflected my state prior to the epiphany (internally and externally). And still reflects my state externally (as I see the physical world).
The instruction I received from the Christ provided me a path to peace within myself (internally). It gave me relief that I was following a path that made sense. What I see externally (the phsiycal world) does cause me disturbance.
_________________
The One is the Invisible Spirit. It is not right to think of it as a God or as like God. It is more than just God. |
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Brother John
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: Re: ha ha ha ha ha ha..... |
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| Niall wrote: | History? Not really. I'm not of the same cut of gnostics that BJ was involved with. I only consider myself a gnostic-Christian from a very fundamental definition.
gonsis = knowledge as taught by the Christ
Christian = personal experience with the Christ
A very simple philosophy. Not well accepted by Christians or Gnostics. |
Niall-
I feel very close to you, because I know where you're coming from!! I can tell that you have a very REAL thirst for Christ and his instruction & wisdom... but my brother, I've got to tell you, if you're seeking REAL knowledge of God and his instruction for our lives...and you're seeking hard after him in the path's of the gnostics, then you're following the Blind out into the dessert. AND: If you're following them only in general and not even connected to their path Because: bear in mind that one of THE central and most fundamental tenets w/in ALL gnosticism is the importance of the "transmission" of this gnosis from one 'master' to their disciple in a very personal basis...and that w/out this, it cannot be 'received'...according to THEIR own traditions. It works a lot like the idea of the Apostolic Succession, that it came from the hands of Christ to Peter and the Apostles to those they baptized and discipled ...etc., and that to break the chain of this succession (according to the concept of the Apostolic Succession) is to lose all authority and power of what is supposed to be given by one and received by the other....down through the process of time and teaching.
SO: If you, as in what you've said, are simply detached from the exacting teachings and processes of the Gnostic community and the Gnostics themselves and simply trying to find your own path using their own heretical and LOST conclusions as your very starting place, then you've left the lost to become more lost than they are.
I do not say this out of spite or anger or hatred or to be mean spirited toward you Niall!! But because my heart and yours have wondered similar dark places!! I KNOW why you search and why you seek in the places you have, and I HOPE & PRAY that you'll eventually see, by the Grace of God alone, that you are lost. I hope that it doesn't take the brokenness that came my way that made me cry out to a God who didn't answer because I called with the wrong name and the wrong intent and from the basis of instructions that HE did NOT give.
I had to first CRUMBLE before the cracks in my Universe were BIG enough to allow GOD'S TRUE LIGHT to pour in, but once I TURNED from the back of the cave and looked toward HIM......
he showed himself to me.
We are NOT saved by knowledge Niall, neither you nor I nor anyone...not EVEN the "knowledge" that Christ DID teach, let alone these works that are were later ascribed to Him.......falsely.
We ARE saved by Grace (the unmerited, undeserved gift from GOD) through FAITH (Belief & Trust) in the Lord Jesus Christ and his redemption ALONE!!
Not what we 'know' and 'understand'....but through what GOD did for us.
Sure, we need to know of it, and this knowledge is given through the preaching of God's word, HIS Gospel...and this knowledge MUST go out to ALL the world...
because it is not the Father's will that ANY should be lost!
But we aren't to worship the WISDOM or KNOWLEDGE that Christ gave us...
Knowledge is to be able to hold the map in our hands and see it.
Wisdom is to be able to look at that map and understand/interpret it rightly....
but the TRUTH that the map shows us is that GOD ALREADY MADE THE JOURNEY!! He became flesh, dwelt amongst us and gave us the chance to be free in deed, and he Accomplished this CENTURIES before you and I were ever born! But HE did it for ME...and He did it for YOU! ....and He did it for EVERYONE!
Don't worship the God given map (especially not the ones drummed up by man's lost longings for Him)
Don't praise the God given ability to READ & INTERPRET that map...
Rather Worship the One who sent the one who already traveled that path!
Jesus is LORD...
not Knowledge or Wisdom.
Not Gnosis
sorry to ramble on so, but I hope and pray Niall that you'll see where I'm coming from.
In LOVE...
Your Brother
John[/u] |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Very well put HeKkLeR. Thank you for the time and effort
you put into finding the above quote. Very similar to Yeshua's quote.
Thanks! |
Hey, thank you, Niall!
But... the quote you left was not from me. So, I am not sure if you meant what I actually included from the Bible, or if you meant the gracious stuff that Brother John wrote.
If the latter, I surely cannot take any credit, but give it away.
_________________
Peace
The HeKkLeR |
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