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admin
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 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Why do you think ID is primarily a US issue? |
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Why do you think ID is primarily an issue isolated to the United States? It is not a major debate issue internationally.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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I think that part of it is that there are way more fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. than in any other industrialized country. Most other Christians can go into religious mode when they go to church and secular mode when they deal with everyday life, but fundamentalists are told that there are no such barriers and that they have to eat, sleep, and breathe the Bible.
And of course the literalism demanded by fundamentalists is a major cause. Other Christians don't get hung up on every single word in the Bible from cover to cover being literally true, whereas fundamentalists do.
They also seem to be of the mindset that if someone finds even one tiny little error in the Bible, then the entire thing has to be thrown out, and consequently they find it to be *really* important to fight for every single sentence being literally true. Since creation is such an important issue, of course this literalism also extends to it, and they fight for it tooth and nail.
Another issue is science education. The U.S. (and Canada) have a *terrible* education system, especially when it comes to science. Having a scientifically-ignorant public sets the stage for pseudoscience like ID to flourish.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
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Dust
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | Why do you think ID is primarily an issue isolated to the United States? It is not a major debate issue internationally. |
ID is a rather modern term/explanation of the eons old and nearly universal belief/notion that God is the creator.
The issue arises as a by-product of the developing freedom established by Christians in the United States. Our modern culture allows ideas to flow freely, and allows those who oppose God to freely adopt whatever form of expression or whatever avenue of advance they choose. ID is a correction response, which leads back to God.
The word of God points to intellegent design. Several areas/aspects of science point to intellegent-design/the-anthropic-principle. Those who oppose God, oppose this idea.........though it's a losing battle for them.
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admin
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | The word of God points to intellegent design. Several areas/aspects of science point to intellegent-design/the-anthropic-principle. Those who oppose God, oppose this idea.........though it's a losing battle for them. |
Would you also say those that oppose this idea, oppose God?
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Dust
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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No, I wouldn't say that.
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The Barbarian
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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ID is merely creationist cleaned up in a way that some hoped would pass muster to get it into public schools.
Those hopes have been dashed. "Flood Geology", "Creation Science", "Intelligent Design."
Look for another name change, soon. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | Several areas/aspects of science point to intellegent-design/the-anthropic-principle. |
No, they really don't. If they did, then there would be a large number of religious people among scientists. Instead, the population of scientists is where you find the greatest number of atheists and agnostics.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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PrysdieHeer!
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Dust wrote: | | Several areas/aspects of science point to intellegent-design/the-anthropic-principle. |
No, they really don't. If they did, then there would be a large number of religious people among scientists. Instead, the population of scientists is where you find the greatest number of atheists and agnostics. |
An amuba is a lot more comlicated than a spaceship, you wish to tell me that is not intellegent?
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Prys die Heer!
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Dust
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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What about you admin? What say you on the subject?
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| PrysdieHeer! wrote: | | An amuba is a lot more comlicated than a spaceship, you wish to tell me that is not intellegent? |
Complexity (especially unnecessary complexity) is not indicative of design. Considering that Amoeba dubia has the largest number of base pairs in its genome out of the entirety of life (as far as is known) doesn't mean that intelligence was required to spawn it. That it has such an extensive genome to little effect (compared to eukaryotes, prokaryotes such as amoebas have many fewer genes relative to their number of base pairs) is indication that it was not intelligently designed.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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rufus
Big Hamster
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Why do you think ID is primarily a US issue? |
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| admin wrote: | | Why do you think ID is primarily an issue isolated to the United States? It is not a major debate issue internationally. |
It looks like it is not isolated to the United States.
| Quote: |
'Who's Who' list challenging Darwin grows:
The list of signatories, now numbering 700, also includes member scientists from National Academies of Science in Russia, Czech Republic, Hungary, India (Hindustan), Nigeria, Poland and the U.S.
Many of the signers are professors or researchers at major universities and international research institutions such as Cambridge University, Moscow State University, Chitose Institute of Science & Technology in Japan, Ben-Gurion University in Israel.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=40098 |
| Quote: |
Creation vs Darwin takes Muslim twist in Turkey:
Intelligent Design (ID), a more recent argument about life's origins that is championed by U.S. Christian groups, may also be making the leap across the Atlantic.
ID says some organisms are too complex to have evolved without some superior cause, but avoids calling that cause God because that would ban it from U.S. science textbooks.
Akyol, a Muslim believer who says Darwinism is incompatible with his faith, has been waging an uphill struggle to popularize ID here. But most Turks show no interest because they see no need to avoid naming God.
His lonely campaign got an unexpected boost last month when Education Minister Huseyin Celik hinted on television that he might want to see it added to Turkish textbooks.
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=23461&sec=33&con=54 |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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No, we're not talking about Turkey or any other developing countries. We're talking about first-world, scientifically-advanced, industrialized countries, and among them the United States is the only one where evolution is a political issue on which any significant number of people dissent. Obviously if we look at third-world countries they will be scientific and educational backwaters.
But wow, the prospect of Christian and Muslim fundamentalists coming together in their mutual hatred of science gets me all teary-eyed. That's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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rufus
Big Hamster
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 96
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | No, we're not talking about Turkey or any other developing countries. We're talking about first-world, scientifically-advanced, industrialized countries |
Okay, read the post:
| Quote: |
The list of signatories, now numbering 700, also includes member scientists from National Academies of Science in Russia, Czech Republic, Hungary, India (Hindustan), Nigeria, Poland and the U.S.
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Cmon P1234567890 there's a lot of high tech computer and engineering type of guys from India, and the Czech Republic is just as good as Holland.
| Quote: |
Many of the signers are professors or researchers at major universities and international research institutions such as Cambridge University, Moscow State University, Chitose Institute of Science & Technology in Japan, Ben-Gurion University in Israel. |
Hey, look, Cambridge University. That's like an Ivy league school in the UK. Chitose Institute of Science & Technology in Japan!! Gee wiz, the Japanese were kicking our tail in the market not that long ago. Mitsubishi, Sanyo, Sansui, Toyota. Cmon, man!!! Ben-Gurion University in Israel? Top notch! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: | | It looks like it is not isolated to the United States. |
Aw, it's so cute that the Discovery Institute's list has reached 700. Project Steve (scientists named Steve signing that they support the theory of evolution) is over 860. Since numbers are so important, after all.
See, the Discovery Institute's list doesn't include all that many biologists. You know, the people that would actually be qualified to make statements as to evolution's validity. In comparison, the list of signatories of Project Steve is 2/3rds biologists.
And it's not too surprising that Muslims use ID's arguments. They have been for years. Even the article points out the most important point: that IDists avoid calling the designer "God" because that would explicitly prevent it from getting into textbooks.
The ID movement exists for this reason. Fundamentalist Muslims are also creationists so they happily use the same arguments.
| rufus wrote: | | Cmon P1234567890 there's a lot of high tech computer and engineering type of guys from India, |
I'm trying and failing to see what this has to do with the biological sciences.
| rufus wrote: | | Quote: | | Many of the signers are professors or researchers at major universities and international research institutions such as Cambridge University, Moscow State University, Chitose Institute of Science & Technology in Japan, Ben-Gurion University in Israel. |
Hey, look, Cambridge University. That's like an Ivy league school in the UK. Chitose Institute of Science & Technology in Japan!! Gee wiz, the Japanese were kicking our tail in the market not that long ago. Mitsubishi, Sanyo, Sansui, Toyota. Cmon, man!!! Ben-Gurion University in Israel? Top notch! |
Cambridge University signatories:
Eshan Dias - Ph.D. Chemical Engineering
Stephen Meyer - Ph.D. Philosophy of Science
Russel C. Healey - Ph.D Electrical Engineering
Stephen Lloyd - Ph.D. Materials Science
Mark A. Chambers - Ph.D. Virology
Geoff Barnard - Senior Research Scientist, Department of Veterinary Medicine.
Moscow State University signatories:
Lev Beloussov - Professor of embryology, honorary professor
Evgeny Shirokov - Faculty Lecturer (Nuclear and Particle Physics)
Vladimir L. Voeikov - Vice-Chairman, Chair of Bio-organic Chemistry, Faculty of Biology
Chitose Institute of Science & Technology signatories:
Olaf Karthaus - Associate Professor, Chemistry
Ben-Gurion University signatories:
Herman Branover - Professor of Mechanical Engineering
And that's from the DI's own document, barring typos those are the only signatories from the mentioned universities.
So.
Seriously? Two of the three schools pointed out had one signatory, and there was only one signatory of Cambridge that was even related (the Virology Ph.D.). And seriously, look at what the article claims versus how many signatories are actually associated with those schools.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: |
Cmon P1234567890 there's a lot of high tech computer and engineering type of guys from India,
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Irrelevant. What does computer engineering have to do with evolutionary biology?
| rufus wrote: |
and the Czech Republic is just as good as Holland.
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The Czech Republic is a hotbed of atheism, and there is no significant ID movement there. There is no significant ID movement in ANY EU country.
| rufus wrote: |
Hey, look, Cambridge University. That's like an Ivy league school in the UK. Chitose Institute of Science & Technology in Japan!! Gee wiz, the Japanese were kicking our tail in the market not that long ago. Mitsubishi, Sanyo, Sansui, Toyota. Cmon, man!!! Ben-Gurion University in Israel? Top notch! |
And if any significant number of the signatories were expert biologists, then you might have a point. But they aren't, so you don't.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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