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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Names for the Holiday: Passover, Pesach, the Festival of Our Freedom, the Festival of Spring
When It Starts: 15 Nissan on the Hebrew calendar; sundown on April 2, 2007; April 20-27, 2008.
How Long It Lasts: Eight days (seven in Israel)
Notice that the length of Passover is different between Israel and the world. Don't ask me why.
Another little tidbit for males: Exodus 12:44: if you plan on observing it, you'd better be circumcised. |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: good thursday |
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Yehu wrote:
| Quote: | One can hardly claim to have kept and cared for a lamb until the 14th were one to kill it on the 13th.
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I'm sorry, at which point did I ever claim that the lambs were killed on the 13th? When does the day end and begin Yehu?
| Quote: | | As the development of Kosher preparation for food turned “professional” there were only a limited number of butchers available to kill all those lambs needed for the Jewish community |
This would be a problem, but from the Exodus account I got the impression they were to kill it themselves.... Exo 12:6 - And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
maybe that's where the confusion comes from. I think when they went to Jerusalem they had the "professional butchers" do it instead, making it impossible to slaughter all those lambs at twilight, I believe I did read that somewhere.....
| Quote: | | PS: And don't think the fact that you cannot support your previous assertions with scripture has gone unnoticed. |
 As I've shown before with numerous scriptures, a compilation of all those connected with the event at question, not just one that seems to show the point you are making as you have done at the exclusion of all the others. maybe you are not paying as close attention as you ought to be Yehu my friend.
| Quote: | | And if, as you yourself say, “The Hebrews themselves dispute this Yehu,” who are these scholars to know better |
Veery funny Yehu. You were the 1st to say that I knew better than the scholars in a previous post, and now that I site scholastic conclusions, I'm wrong  If you notice, some of what I posted came from the Hebrews themselves. Oh here's another taken from Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus - page 87...
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But when God had signified, that with one plague he would compel the Egyptians to let Hebrews go, he commanded Moses to tell the people that they should have a sacrifice ready, and they should prepare themselves on the tenth day of the month Xanthicus, against thefourteenth, (which month is called by the Egyptians Pharmuth, Nisan by the Hebrews; but the Macedonians call it Xanthicus,) and that he should carry the Hebrews with all they had. Accordingly, he having got the Hebrews ready for their departure, and having sorted the people into tribes, he kept them together in one place: but when the fourteenth day was comeand all were ready to depart they offered the sacrifice, and purified their houses with the blood, using bunches of hyssop for that purpose; and when they had supped, they burnt the remainder of the flesh, as just ready to depart. Whence it is that we do still offer this sacrifice in like manner to this day, and call this festival Pascha which signifies the feast of the passover; because on that day God passed us over, and sent the plague upon the Egyptians; for the destruction of the first-born came upon the Egyptians that night (the night of the 14th),........ They left Egypt in the month Xanthicus, on the fifteenth day of the lunar month;.... |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Re: good thursday |
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| Hello Pato, for us who are trying to put this all together, would you give us a time line using our month, and day, (realizing the Jewish day started, and ended at sunset), for when Jesus celebrated the passover, was crucified, died, buried, and arose? This is all very confusing, and you help would be appreciated. |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Re: good thursday |
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| JimD wrote: | | Hello Pato, for us who are trying to put this all together, would you give us a time line using our month, and day, (realizing the Jewish day started, and ended at sunset), for when Jesus celebrated the passover, was crucified, died, buried, and arose? This is all very confusing, and you help would be appreciated. |
I think we're unable to post links (or is that another forum?) Anyway, I'll post a quote that describes my position. (P.S. This is my position it does not reflect that of everyone else.) This has been a bone of contention among christians for years and will more than likely continue to be for years to come
| Quote: | A Passover on Wednesday is the only day of the week that works with all Biblical accounts of the crucifixion. Yahshua was in the grave "three days and three nights" Matthew 12:40. From Wednesday just before sunset to Saturday just before sunset is three days and three nights. The fact that the day following Yahshua's crucifixion was a Sabbath (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:52-54, & John 19:31) does not prove He was crucified on a Friday. According to the Law of Moses, the day following Passover (which is also the first day of the feast of unleavened bread) is also, always a Sabbath day of rest to be observed like the 7th day weekly Sabbath no matter what day of the week it falls on. (See Leviticus 23:4-8, Numbers 28:16-18, and take special notice of John 19:31 again. The Sabbath immediately following Yahshua's crucifixion was no ordinary Sabbath.)
Understanding that it was a Wednesday Passover and crucifixion also solves apparent conflicts in the Gospel records. In Luke 23:55,56 it says that the women (Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James) went and prepared anointing spices and oils BEFORE the Sabbath. In Mark 16:1 it says that they bought them AFTER the Sabbath! The answer lies is in the fact that there are two different Sabbaths being referred to here. The women both bought and prepared the spices on the same day. The day of the week was Friday. When Mark says they bought the spices AFTER the Sabbath, the Sabbath he is referring to was the special Thursday Sabbath ...the first day of unleavened bread that followed the day of Passover. When Luke says they prepared the spices and then rested the Sabbath, the Sabbath he is referring to is Saturday ...the weekly Sabbath.
There is also proof found in Matthew 28:1 that there were two Sabbaths. Most Bible translations render this word "Sabbath" in the singular because translators, believing the traditional Friday crucifixion scenario, couldn't make any sense of the fact that the Greek manuscripts all render this word in the plural. This fact can be verified by anyone with a Greek interlinear translation or Greek lexicon. Matthew 28:1 therefore should read, "Now after the SABBATHS as the first day of the week began to dawn...".
Therefore, for all the records to add up it must be concluded that Yahshua was crucified on a Wednesday.
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2420
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Re: good thursday |
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Just so you know, pato, God hates liars. Josephus did NOT write “that night (the night of the 14th),…” Liars add in stuff that wasn’t written.
| LINK TO The Works of Flavius Josephus, translated by William Whiston wrote: | Chapter XIV
Whence it is that we do still offer this sacrifice in like manner to this day, and call this festival Pascha which signifies the feast of the passover; because on that day God passed us over, and sent the plague upon the Egyptians; for the destruction of the first-born came upon the Egyptians that night, so that many of the Egyptians who lived near the king’s placace, persuaded Pharoah to let the Hebrews go. Accordingly he called for Moses, and bid them begone;
Chapter XV (paragraph 2) They left Egypt in the month Xanthicus, on the fifteenth day of the lunar month;.... |
Why did you feel it necessary to ADD IN “(the night of the 14th)” misleading everyone to believe that Josephus wrote this?
| pato wrote: | | I'm sorry, at which point did I ever claim that the lambs were killed on the 13th? |
And I am sorry that you can’t seem to remember what you say.
| pato wrote: | | Are you aware that the Jews sacrifice the Passover late in the evening (which to them means anytime from 3:00pm) on the 14th day of Nissan? |
Since the 14th starts at sunset, your 3:00pm would be on the 13th. THIS is where you claimed the lambs were killed on the 13th.
Even reading that Josephus says they LEFT on the 15th, (and agreeing with this) you can’t seem to understanding that you have the Hebrew standing around ready for 24 hours doing nothing before they actually leave! 
You have them both killing and eating the Pasch after sunset on the 14th, then comes the morning of the 14th when they just sit there, then the afternoon of the 14th when they just sit there, and then the evening of the 15th when they just sit there until the morning of the 15th? (Or are you claiming they left at sunset to travel in the dark after sitting around all day in the daylight?) How does that make any sense?
Rather, as Josephus wrote, they prepared themselves and were ready to leave by the 14th, killed the Pasch before sunset on the 14th, ate after sunset on the 15th, stayed inside until the morning of the 15th, and left after sunrise - ON the 15th.
Yehushuan |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Actually, the day of the week is hardly important, except for Trinitarians who try to justify Easter Sunday as biblical. On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the Passover, so it is not necessary for Christians to observe it in the Jewish sense.
However, if all the facts be put together, Jesus was crucified on a Thursday at noon (sixth hour); died at three in th aft (ninth hour), and all that time there was darkness over the land. Jesus was taken down and entombed a little before sunset.
Time is calculated by the Jewish inclusive method, which accounts for the confusion about "three days". Jesus could not have been crucified on a Friday, since there are other factors that negate this. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2420
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| pato’s unnamed source wrote: | | This fact can be verified by anyone with a Greek interlinear translation or Greek lexicon. Matthew 28:1 therefore should read, "Now after the SABBATHS as the first day of the week began to dawn...". |
And anyone with a Greek interlinear can read “οψε δε σαββατων” yet have no clue οψε doesn’t mean “after” but “late in the day at evening,” literally reading, “…eve of the Sabbaths…”
The “eve of the Sabbaths”?
Yet pato’s source makes MUCH of the fact that σαββατων is plural but seems to conveniently omit the fact that the Greek text uses the word Sabbath TWICE, and is plural TWICE.
“…οψε δε σαββατων τη επιφωσκουση εις μιαν σαββατων…”
| The Young’s Literal wrote: | | Mat 28:1 YLT And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre, |
The “first of the Sabbaths?”
How come pato’s source conveniently translates the second plural σαββατων as “week” but fails to mention this? To trick and deceive the reader one wonders? To be HONEST, pato, shouldn’t your source actually read, “Now after the week as the first day of the week began to dawn”? And if the plural of Sabbath was used in the same manner as we use the word "week" where then is this supposed proof? (POOF - it disappears.)
Yehushuan |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: good thursday |
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| Quote: | | Why did you feel it necessary to ADD IN “(the night of the 14th)” misleading everyone to believe that Josephus wrote this? |
Actually, that was supposed to be (The night of the 14th YEHU). Nevertheless, that night signifies rthe night in question YEHU, the same night he started talking about, the night of the 14th. It does say THAT NIGHT, and what night was being discussed, the 14th, What is wrong with you?
| Quote: | And I am sorry that you can’t seem to remember what you say.
pato wrote:
Are you aware that the Jews sacrifice the Passover late in the evening (which to them means anytime from 3:00pm) on the 14th day of Nissan?
Since the 14th starts at sunset, your 3:00pm would be on the 13th. THIS is where you claimed the lambs were killed on the 13th.
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What???? If the 14th started at sunset yesterday YEHU how could today possibly be the 13th?? Would 3:00pm today not be 3pm on the 14th? Sunset that ENDED the 13th, BEGUN the 14th, the day that followed, would be the 14th all the way until sunset.
| Quote: | | Since the 14th starts at sunset, your 3:00pm would be on the 13th. THIS is where you claimed the lambs were killed on the 13th. |
???? Maybe you can understand this but I never made this claim..
| Quote: | | Even reading that Josephus says they LEFT on the 15th, (and agreeing with this) you can’t seem to understanding that you have the Hebrew standing around ready for 24 hours doing nothing before they actually leave! |
What???? I can hardly believe the folly you write Yehu. They killed the passover after sunset on the 13th during the twilight period which started the 14th. Ate the Passover on the night of the 14th. They went out of their houses in the morning (still the 14th) to burn what was left of the Passover, spoiled the Egyptians, gathered their things, went over to Rameses where they were assembled in their tribes and left Egypt at night, by now it was dark, sunset occurred which ended the 14th, the 15th begun, it was now night time on the 15th it took them all day to do this YEHU. They weren't waiting around for 24 hrs, they had all this to do, some 2 million (or so) people 
| Quote: | You have them both killing and eating the Pasch after sunset on the 14th, then comes the morning of the 14th when they just sit there, then the afternoon of the 14th when they just sit there, and then the evening of the 15th when they just sit there until the morning of the 15th? (Or are you claiming they left at sunset to travel in the dark after sitting around all day in the daylight?) How does that make any sense?
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 You know I say no such thing Yehu. and no, this makes no sense whatsoever.
| Quote: | stayed inside until the morning of the 15th, and left after sunrise - ON the 15th.
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Oh really....
Deut 16:1- Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt
by night.
Exo 12:42 - It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2420
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| pato wrote: | | It does say THAT NIGHT, and what night was being discussed, the 14th, What is wrong with you? |
Nothing is wrong with me, in that Josephus being a Jew would have automatically thought that people would understand that “night” was the start of the next “day.” That’s precisely what we’re talking about, the western misapprehension of the Jewish idiom.
By “THAT NIGHT” Josephus meant the 15th as any Jew would read.
| LINK TO The Works of Flavius Josephus, translated by William Whiston wrote: | | Accordingly, he having got the Hebrews ready for their departure, and having sorted the people into tribes, he kept them together in one place: but when the fourteenth day was come, and all were ready to depart, they offered the sacrifice, and purified their houses with the blood, using bunches of hyssop for that purpose; and when they had supped, they burnt the remainder of the flesh, as just ready to depart. Whence it is that we do still offer this sacrifice in like manner to this day, and call this festival Pascha, which signifies the feast of the Passover; because on that day God passed us over, and sent the plague upon the Egyptians; for the destruction of the first-born came upon the Egyptians that night, so that many … |
Seriously, you’re reading this as a gentile. They offered the sacrifice on the 14th just before the sunset. “That night” would refer to the 15th, when they ate, and left the next morning.
| pato wrote: | | Would 3:00pm today not be 3pm on the 14th? |
And you ask what’s wrong with me? Since 3:00pm is well before sunset, how can you have them eating the meal at night on the 14th which is before the afternoon of 3:00pm on the 14th wherein you have it killed?
| pato wrote: | | I'm sorry, at which point did I ever claim that the lambs were killed on the 13th? |
Here
| pato wrote: | | They killed the passover after sunset on the 13th during the twilight period which started the 14th. {emphasis added} |
And you say I’m confused? 
Pato, you have become pathetic. Don’t keep embarrassing yourself like this.
| pato wrote: | | They weren't waiting around for 24 hrs, they had all this to do, some 2 million (or so) people |
Your own source Josephus says they were already prepared, and stipulates a number 600,000 of age for war. QUOTE: “all were ready to depart” (see above). This means they would be standing around waiting. You say they had to prepare, the sources say they were already prepared.
So you interpret Deut 16:1 that they literally traveled at night, wherein I see that as a clear reference to their deliverance by the deaths that occurred at night.
Yet since you admitted that they left on the 15th just as Josephus states, I see the scripture clearing showing they left on the selfsame day that they ate the Passover meal.
Exo 12:51 KJV And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.
They left the 15th during the daylight after eating the Passover the previous nighttime on the selfsame 15th.
Yehushuan |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Pete, you are right, it is not a critical issue, as it was fulfilled in Christ, the same as the Sabbath and the rest of the law. There is only one critical issue and that is whether faith is expressing itself through love. But you have to admit, it is interesting, and can be one more brick in our wall of faith that helps us to trust God more. It was important enough to God that he saw fit to do it at a certain time.
In retrospect this was all accomplished in Gods time from the beginning, but we being mortal get it all tangled up in our time and dispensations, trying to have God be different from one time to another, simply because of our lack of comprehension.
If you guys ever get it figured out, I hope someone will explain it to me. Right now I am still confused  |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: |
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The timing of Christ's crucifixion is only critical from its relationship to Passover. If Jesus had been crucified at any other time he could not have justifiably died for our sins, and qualified as the savior of mankind.
The fact that his death was timed to the minute, as part of the Passover event, clearly establishes his claim as the Son of God, and Savior of the world. It could not have been a coincidence.
Last edited by Pete on Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2420
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| pato’s unnamed source wrote: | | Yahshua was in the grave "three days and three nights" Matthew 12:40. From Wednesday just before sunset … |
And out of which science fiction book was this extracted I wonder?
Here are the scriptural identifiers of the time when Jesus was removed from the cross and buried.
Mark 15:42 και AND ηδη ALREADY οψιας EVENING γενομενης WAS COME επει ην παρασκευη ο εστιν προσαββατον …
Mt. 27:57 – οψιας EVENING δε THEN γενομενης WAS COME (HAD BEGUN) ...
γενομενης V-2ADP- Second Aorist Middle Deponent Participle. It is a past participle which indicates action has taken place. Literally, evening HAD begun. It was after sunset, not “just before”.
So while both Mark and Matthew testify that He was buried after sunset, I’m sure we should Not let what is actually written detract us from embracing our fantasies, should we.
Yehushuan |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | Actually, the day of the week is hardly important, except for Trinitarians who try to justify Easter Sunday as biblical. On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the Passover, so it is not necessary for Christians to observe it in the Jewish sense.
However, if all the facts be put together, Jesus was crucified on a Thursday at 9 A.M. (third hour); died at three in th aft (ninth hour), and from noon (sixth hour) there was darkness over the land. Jesus was taken down and entombed a little before sunset.
Time is calculated by the Jewish inclusive method, which accounts for the confusion about "three days". Jesus could not have been crucified on a Friday, since there are other factors that negate this. |
I had intended to edit my previous post regarding the time of that Jesus was put on the cross and somehow it came out as a new post. Sorry.
Last edited by Pete on Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Hey ladies and fellas,
The amazing thing is that my Savior lives. Whether He died Thursday or Friday, you just can't keep a good man down.
Praise the Lord
Man that felt good
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 812
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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JB, the only reason it comes up is that Trins try to Biblically justify Easter and Sunday observance. On the other side of the coin, Law keepers insist that Gentile Christians must observe 7th day Sabbath keeping.
Both are wrong. |
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