I was told Jesus did not die on a Cross, is that true?

Arthur

I came across some unsettling research the other day about the cross. I know the cross has become a Christian symbol, but what I did not know is that the Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions is stau•ros´. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau•ros´], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.

Was that the case in connection with the execution of God’s Son? It is noteworthy that the Bible also uses the word xy´lon to identify the device used. A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines this as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.” It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and 10:39 as examples. (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192) However, in those verses KJ, RS, JB, and Dy translate xy´lon as “tree.” (Compare this rendering with Galatians 3:13; Deuteronomy 21:22, 23.)

The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896), says: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”—Pp. 23, 24; see also The Companion Bible (London, 1885), Appendix No. 162.

Thus the weight of the evidence indicates that Jesus died on an upright stake and not on the traditional cross.

Anybody have any evidence to the contrary on this or are we all using the wrong symbol here?

Your friend in the Truth
Arthur

Zathrus · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:14 am Post subject:

I have heard of this before.

A good example of how meanings can become unclear when translated from one language and culture to another, isn't it?

I don't know why it would be a big issue though. Two pieces nailed together at right angles, or one upright stake - does the exact appearance of the stauros on which Jesus died make a major difference where our faith is concerned?
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MoJo · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:05 am Post subject:

Actually, I used to be concerned about this and was careful not to use the word cross, but then one day, I just determined it didn't matter; it's just a word.

I agree with Rev.

Very Happy

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Yehushuan · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:50 am Post subject:

I would hasten to point out the dates of your sources Arthur:

The first quote is from 1874; the third, 1896; fourth, 1885.

The JW’s, having its origins back in 1876, make much of this information, yet they COMPLETELY ignore the evidence from early Christian art work, not to mention the Orthodox practice of crossing oneself as a blessing.

The Liddell Scott Lexicon © 1940 states “its form was represented by the Greek letter T”

Here is your evidence from the Museum on the Palatine Hill, Rome:

Second century pagan graffito depicting a man worshipping a crucified donkey. The inscription reads: "Alexamenos respects God," presumed to be making fun of a Christian soldier. Tertullian had to defend against this kind of abuse: "For, like some others, you are under the delusion that our god is an ass's head." (The Apology, 16.1).

You'll note the arms are outstretched. Please also note there is a cross piece for the feet!

Yehu
(Always glad to oblige)
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Zathrus · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject:

knuckle · Young Wolf Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 501

Hi All----------

Arthur,the epistle of Barnabas though not cannon has been dated shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem and describes the shape of the cross as a capitol T.Now I am not insisting that this witness of the crucifiction is genuine,but being so close to the date of it the writer would have known how the Romans did it.

That said,I agree with the other posters in that it is the sacrifice, not the device used, is the power of salvation.

much love-------------knuckle

Arthur

Does it really matter if we show Jesus on a cross?

Did Jesus die on a cross or a simple upright stake? Does it really matter? Most will say that it’s not all that important. However since the cross was used extensively in the pagan world as a symbol of sex worship does that not change things? Imagine Jesus nailed to a phallic sex image!!!! Ouch I can’t see Jesus being too happy about that. And besides if Jesus died on a stake then why pervert that truth and call it a cross? The truth is the truth…..right. Is it what we think that counts or why God thinks that counts?

Its all relative most people will say. Many believe that truth is relative—in other words, that what is true to one person may be untrue to another, so that both may be “right.” This belief is so widespread that there is a word for it—“relativism.” Is this how you view the matter of truth?

Relativism is not limited to philosophers. It is taught by religious leaders, indoctrinated in schools, and spread by the media. Episcopal bishop John S. Spong said a few years ago: “We must . . . move from thinking we have the truth and others must come to our point of view to the realization that ultimate truth is beyond the grasp of all of us.”

But I like how Professor V. R. Ruggiero expresses this in his book The Art of Thinking, his surprise that even intelligent people sometimes say that truth is relative. He reasons: “If everyone makes his own truth, then no person’s idea can be better than another’s. All must be equal. And if all ideas are equal, what is the point in researching any subject? Why dig in the ground for answers to archeological questions? Why probe the causes of tension in the Middle East? Why search for a cancer cure? Why explore the galaxy? These activities make sense only if some answers are better than others, if truth is something separate from, and unaffected by, individual perspectives.”

In fact, no one really believes that there is no truth. When it comes to physical realities, such as medicine, mathematics, or the laws of physics, even the staunchest relativist will believe that some things are true. Who of us would dare to ride in an airplane if we did not think that the laws of aerodynamics were absolute truths? Verifiable truths do exist; they surround us, and we stake our lives on them.

So let us leave the murky waters of relativism and examine briefly what the Bible describes as the pure waters of truth. (John 4:14; Revelation 22:17) In the Bible, “truth” is not at all like the abstract, intangible concept over which philosophers debate.

We need to ask ourselves “will I have the courage to stand for the TRUTH about the cross or will I cave in and go along with the vast majority who have probably never looked into the origin and meaning of the original cross?”

Call me whatever names you want, but I'm more concerned about pleasing Jesus than scoring popularity points with the crowd

Your friend in the Truth
Arthur

Zathrus · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:01 am Post subject:

Arthur,
You're gonna have to be a little more slick than that. In your last post, you tried to smoothly morph a possible misunderstanding that would be due to a translational error of one word into "relativism". However, your sleight of hand was so poorly executed, it was way too obvious that one completely dissimilar idea was being put in place of another, and the reader was supposed to not notice the quick switch.

Yehushuan

Arthur

I know this is shocking information and its not my purpose to upset anyone, however even though the orthodox practice of crossing oneself as a blessing has been around for centuries.....the question begs....where did all this come from? Of interest is this comment in the New Catholic Encyclopedia: “The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”—(1967), Vol. IV, p. 486.

In reply to your point that the second century pagan graffito depicts a man worshipping a crucified donkey I would add that its not really clear that the donkey is on a cross and if it is a cross it only shows that PAGANS used crosses infact the cross came all the way from Babylon!!!

That's my whole point....the cross was a PAGAN symbol used in Sex worship orginally.“The cross in the form of the ‘Crux Ansata’ . . . was carried in the hands of the Egyptian priests and Pontiff kings as the symbol of their authority as priests of the Sun god and was called ‘the Sign of Life.’”—The Worship of the Dead (London, 1904), Colonel J. Garnier, p. 226.

Don’t be offended but the cross really should not be part of true Christian worship “Various figures of crosses are found everywhere on Egyptian monuments and tombs, and are considered by many authorities as symbolical either of the phallus [a representation of the male sex organ] or of coition. . . . In Egyptian tombs the crux ansata [cross with a circle or handle on top] is found side by side with the phallus.”—A Short History of Sex-Worship (London, 1940), H. Cutner, pp. 16, 17; see also The Non-Christian Cross, p. 183.

I know the Jehovah's Witnesses are strong on this point and that's just it. I would like to see if anyone has any VALID research that really shows Jesus did die on a Cross. So far all the arguments show he died on an upright stake.

I want the TRUTH. After all did not Jesus say "God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and TRUTH!!!!" . .John 4:24?

We must not be afraid of the Truth....afterall that's how God wants to be worshipped....right?

Your friend in the Truth
Arthur

HeKkLeR · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:33 am Post subject:

I know that Jesus died on a tree. A piece of dead wood that was raised up from the earth. Be it in the form of a cross, or the form of a stake is of absolutely no value to the believer's salvation. But it is a great topic for those weak in faith looking for delusional insight... which is not insight at all, but a "best-guess" game.

I know that my God said:

You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them;

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Peace

The HeKkLeR

eleven · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject:

eleven