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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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 Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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I'm struck with the idea that P123 seems to be promoting that for some reason life is supposed to be fair. where did that idea come from?
Life is not fair, people don't start from the same place, some have it easier than others and that is the way it is. The thing about America is that everyone can be more than what they are, regardless of their starting point, that is the idea this nation was founded upon and it has worked very well for many people.
The undergirding thing in all of America is that the individual can rise to unforseen heights through hard work, dedication, and intelligent choice. Imigrants have done it for centuries here, the 'inner city blacks' can do it as well.
The idea of a 'fair starting point' is communistic (socialistic at least) and we have seen around the world how this has been an utter failure.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | I think everyone should have to pass a test to get to vote. I think that citizens should all have a right to take that test as many times as it takes, but they should have to demonstrate at least some minimal competency in the 'knowing what's going on around you' sphere of life. |
But some people are too busy working 3 jobs to have the time to go take a test, especially if they're already disenchanted with the system as it is. Many already think that their vote won't make a difference, so they just wouldn't bother. It would be one more obstacle in the way of them voting, and there are enough obstacles for them already.
Plus setting up and running a testing system in the whole country would cost billions. |
Maybe they should take the test before they get 3 jobs? I'm talking about something kind of like a citizenship test. I know people who have had to take a citizenship test and they know frighteningly more than most people do about our country. It seems only fair that even people who are born on this soil should have to earn the same.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: |
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yep, my wife is naturalized...she had to learn all kinds of things that I was taught in Civics classes...generally, we don't do much of that anymore....my better to focus on "diversity" apparently.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I've been thinking about this thread all day. It seems to me that the U.S. and the 'American dream', or 'American way of life', is a clear study in evolutionary theory.
At its base it is truly a society that embodies Spencer's 'survival of the fittest'. Not in that only the physically strong survive, but those best fitted to flourish do and those that aren't so suited do not.
It is the American way of life to do what you can to create for yourself a better life and to leave your children in a better situation than you were in. It is your children's responsibility to take what they are given and make the most of it, creating for themselves a better life than what you had, and to pass that on to their children.
In this country you either make the most of your opportunities, create better opportunities, or you do not. If you do not then you stagnate.
Speaking purely in evolutionary terms; in the animal world those animals that stagnated became/become extinct. Those that capitalize on their strengths flourish and pass those characteristics on to their offspring, who evolve further.
Our nation's history is replete with people who had nothing, faced insurmountable obstacles and still found a way to excel. One of our greatest presidents (and the first republican BTW), Abe Lincoln, did exactly that. We have many other examples of celebrated and influential/successful people who can offer the same story of overcoming diversity and hardship and succeeding.
Let me ask you: Do we give our weakest everything they need and risk stopping the evolutionary process, or do we allow them to choose to overcome and succeed or stagnate and become extinct?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7611
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | I know people who have had to take a citizenship test and they know frighteningly more than most people do about our country. |
Really? I took the citizenship test last year and became Canadian (yay!), and I thought that the test was a laughable offense. The questions were something like:
1. Which of the following is NOT a province of Canada:
a) Ontario
b) Quebec
c) Nova Scotia
d) Zimbabwe
2. If you want to help the environment, which of the following should you do:
a) Pour antifreeze and oil down the drain
b) Leave your lights on all the time
c) Reduce, reuse, and recycle
d) Burn tires in your back yard
These aren't the exact questions I had, but they were this easy; I kid you not! They clearly don't design the test so that people can fail it. I don't even know why they bother making people take it.
Maybe the ones in B.C. are harder. I don't know.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.
Last edited by P1234567890 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7611
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I've been thinking about this thread all day. It seems to me that the U.S. and the 'American dream', or 'American way of life', is a clear study in evolutionary theory.
At its base it is truly a society that embodies Spencer's 'survival of the fittest'. Not in that only the physically strong survive, but those best fitted to flourish do and those that aren't so suited do not.
It is the American way of life to do what you can to create for yourself a better life and to leave your children in a better situation than you were in. It is your children's responsibility to take what they are given and make the most of it, creating for themselves a better life than what you had, and to pass that on to their children.
In this country you either make the most of your opportunities, create better opportunities, or you do not. If you do not then you stagnate.
Speaking purely in evolutionary terms; in the animal world those animals that stagnated became/become extinct. Those that capitalize on their strengths flourish and pass those characteristics on to their offspring, who evolve further.
Our nation's history is replete with people who had nothing, faced insurmountable obstacles and still found a way to excel. One of our greatest presidents (and the first republican BTW), Abe Lincoln, did exactly that. We have many other examples of celebrated and influential/successful people who can offer the same story of overcoming diversity and hardship and succeeding.
Let me ask you: Do we give our weakest everything they need and risk stopping the evolutionary process, or do we allow them to choose to overcome and succeed or stagnate and become extinct? |
I agree with most of what you say, but there's a difference between giving our weakest everything they need and letting them vote. I don't advocate the former, but I DO advocate the latter.
I also agree that America has had a lot of success stories, but not everyone who arrived on its shores got to live the American dream. There are a whole lot more people who lived life poor DESPITE hard work than there are people who made it rich because of hard work, even in America.
For example, Asian immigrants have an EXTREMELY good work ethic for some reason. But go to your local Chinatown. Look to see how many hard-working people there are, and then ask yourself how many of them are rich.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: |
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RevJP wrote | Quote: | | Do we give our weakest everything they need and risk stopping the evolutionary process, or do we allow them to choose to overcome and succeed or stagnate and become extinct? |
Mostly we give our weakest just barely enough (frequently less) to survive and let them flounder without a clue of how to make it better. Have you ever been to a food bank? Seen what little is actually handed out? Or to a welfare office and see how this system oppresses both the giver and receiver in this help process.
I'm not talking about some of the legendary fraud that the media so easily picks up and broadcasts but the millions each day who must rely upon the charity of others. As someone who is just a little better off than that I see the chances each day to fall into the fraud of those who in their own misguided attempts to get rich, offer others the same phony get rich quick schemes.
I cant say what it really takes to make it good since I've not made it myself, but I know that hard work is not even the major part of it.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| 45 wrote: | | Have you ever been to a food bank? Seen what little is actually handed out? |
Been there more than a few times when the food stamps ran out. Been there again as a volunteer and as one who donates.
| Quote: | | Or to a welfare office and see how this system oppresses both the giver and receiver in this help process. |
Been there, done that. Also have stood in the line at the grocery store with my milk, eggs, bread, nearly expired meat... trying to get as much food as I could for my family with the food stamps I had and watched the person in line in front of me buying steak and junk food, and all kinds of crap with their food stamps, then get into their nice car and drive home while I walked home carrying my groceries. Lived next to some self-same recipients of welfare. eating good, working under the table, smoking pot, and telling the government that they couldn't find a job.
| P123... wrote: | | I also agree that America has had a lot of success stories, but not everyone who arrived on its shores got to live the American dream. There are a whole lot more people who lived life poor DESPITE hard work than there are people who made it rich because of hard work, even in America. |
um... yeah. What part of 'life is not fair' didn't make sense to you?
| Quote: | | For example, Asian immigrants have an EXTREMELY good work ethic for some reason. But go to your local Chinatown. Look to see how many hard-working people there are, and then ask yourself how many of them are rich. |
You should also look at how many of them are not here legally...
The American dream is simply that everyone can make it, not that everyone will.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7611
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | um... yeah. What part of 'life is not fair' didn't make sense to you? |
I never claimed that life is fair. But I still think that unfairness is bad. But revoking people's voting rights as Pondering wants to do would make things MORE unfair. That's the point of this whole debate.
| Quote: | | The American dream is simply that everyone can make it, not that everyone will. |
There's practically zero poverty in Scandanavia, so the Scandanavian dream in some sense is that everyone both can AND will make it.
If Scandanavia can eliminate poverty, then why can't the U.S.? What part of Scandanavian culture or know-how is so superior that they're capable of achieving this and the U.S. can't?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Scandanavia isn't a country...but if you're talking about Norway and Finland, I belive both countries distribute their considerable oil wealth to their citizens or fund social welfare programs with oil $$$. Moreover, they have fairly low population density (I assume the climate has something to with that) and a fairly homogeneous population founded on a Christian Tradition....but what do I know?
I'll get a few facts...
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Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks pondering, saved me some time to point the finger at reality once again....
Welfare states, low population, supplemented incomes from oil $$ to all citizens....
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7611
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Thanks pondering, saved me some time to point the finger at reality once again....
Welfare states, low population, supplemented incomes from oil $$ to all citizens.... |
Sweden and Denmark have oil?
What does low population have to do with anything? I'm sure that there are plenty of states in the Union which have a lower population density than, say, Denmark, and yet the poverty level is way higher in those states than in Denmark.
The United States has one of the highest (the highest?) poverty rate of any modern industrialized country.
Why do you think that is?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | um... yeah. What part of 'life is not fair' didn't make sense to you? |
The part where we have to just lie down and take it.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | um... yeah. What part of 'life is not fair' didn't make sense to you? |
The part where we have to just lie down and take it. |
Where did I or RevJP ever say that? It is a fact though...sometimes smart people work really hard and still get nowhere...sometimes dumb amoral people are born into a family where they inherit enormous wealth....
But for the vast majority the OPPORTUNITY to improve one's station exists...that's why people people come here and not to Cuba.
| P#s wrote: |
Sweden and Denmark have oil? |
Are you deliberately being obtuse?
| P#s wrote: |
What does low population have to do with anything? I'm sure that there are plenty of states in the Union which have a lower population density than, say, Denmark, and yet the poverty level is way higher in those states than in Denmark. |
mmm...the relative homogenious population probably is a larger social factor than the actual number, but I still think getting agreement among a population (with a commonly shared culture) tha numbers 5-9 million (Denmark/Sweden) is easier than getting agreement among a population that numbers 300 million spread out over a much larger area.
| P#s wrote: |
The United States has one of the highest (the highest?) poverty rate of any modern industrialized country. |
first, Source?
Second, some facts about "poverty" in America....per the census bureau, about 35M Americans live below the "poverty line"...that's about 10% of all Americans.
Of those below the poverty line:
45% of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
76% of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
Only 6% of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
Nearly 75% of poor households own a car; 30% own two or more cars.
97%!!!! of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
78%!!!! have a VCR or DVD player; 62% have cable or satellite TV reception.
73% percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher
100% of urban and suburban "poor" have access to public libraries, public school education K-12, and access to grant and loan programs for higher education.
Nearly all qualify for Medicaid/Medicare and have access to emergency room treatment to save life/limb/eyesight.
Starvation is rare and is usually a result of individual choice (drugs over food) or parental neglect, not access to food aid. "89% of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat."
source
| P#s wrote: |
Why do you think that is? |
I think that Americans have no idea what poverty actually is.
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: |
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That is stretching the definition of poverty far beyond what the word means.
I've read that middle class has also been stretched far beyond meaning also. Can someone whose income is nearly $100,000 be middle class? I hardly think so!
It is either an government bureaucratic example of stupidity or another example of how statisticians lie.
OR
As an example of how people want to see themselves, "hey look at me, I'm poor"... as if being poor means we need to treat this person in some special way.
This is a example of bracket creep.
Does poverty mean that a person cant just go out and buy whatever they want on an instant's notice? Then it says far more about our social expectations than about poverty. Poverty means to me that one or more of their or their family's real needs aren't met and therefore needs to be supported through some charitable organization.
There are many things in life which cannot qualify as "needs", still some people insist they have them anyway. In some areas such as NY where owning a car is hardly required but other areas such as LA where it is extremely hard to live without one. But DVD's, MP3 players, and wide screen TV's never qualify as needs, even if someone really wants them.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
Read the
www.Christian-Thinktank.com |
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