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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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 Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Oh, come on P123 you've read the propaganda, people in positions of power do in fact hold out this position. Call it whatever you like, self interest or not, the action around the world we perform is essentially that of a policeman.
If America didn't do it (police the world) they assure us nobody would. And the world would become far worse off if we didn't do this. By the way Rome did the same thing in its own time frame. It shows the world an attitude of implied self righteousness assuming that our way of life is the best and that everyone should emulate us.
Cultural and economic imperialism at its best (worst?). |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | Oh, come on P123 you've read the propaganda, people in positions of power do in fact hold out this position. Call it whatever you like, self interest or not, the action around the world we perform is essentially that of a policeman.
If America didn't do it (police the world) they assure us nobody would. And the world would become far worse off if we didn't do this. By the way Rome did the same thing in its own time frame. It shows the world an attitude of implied self righteousness assuming that our way of life is the best and that everyone should emulate us.
Cultural and economic imperialism at its best (worst?). |
If the U.S. were a policeman, then you guys would intervene in situations where evil things are happening. That's simply not the case. Just look at the genocide in Rwanda. Look at how evil the Saudi government is (not to mention that like all of the Sept. 11th hijackers were Saudis), yet America hasn't ever lifted a finger against that country. Look at all of the injustice in the world against Kurds and Armenians and Palestinians. The U.S. *never* intervenes in these cases.
If Rwanda had oil, then you guys certainly would have 'intervened'. You're a policeman only when there are strategic resources involved. (Not quite true: You used to do all sorts of police stuff in the name of fighting the spread of Communism, but those days are over.) |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | 45degreeN wrote: |
So I guess I didn't pay anything towards this war, does that mean I am not allowed to say anything about it? |
In my world? yes, that's right...I suspose I'm something of a Heinleinian Libertarian...those that contribute to the society have a say, those that are "wards of the state" should have the same rights as children in a family....appreciate your input, but you don't have decision authority....put then, that's just me  |
So you think that people should have a say based on how many tax dollars they contribute? |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Incidentally, if and when I move to the states and become a landed immigrant, I'll be 'contributing' a lot to the society in terms of taxes. Although I won't be a citizen, should I have a vote as well, on account of my contributions? Or in that case will my lack of citizenship be sufficient grounds to disqualify me? |
i do not think a noncitizen should have part in any countries election... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: |
i do not think a noncitizen should have part in any countries election... |
That's fine. I happen to agree.
The problem here is that Pondering doesn't agree that all citizens should have that right. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Pondering wrote: | | 45degreeN wrote: |
So I guess I didn't pay anything towards this war, does that mean I am not allowed to say anything about it? |
In my world? yes, that's right...I suspose I'm something of a Heinleinian Libertarian...those that contribute to the society have a say, those that are "wards of the state" should have the same rights as children in a family....appreciate your input, but you don't have decision authority....put then, that's just me |
So you think that people should have a say based on how many tax dollars they contribute? |
If we based it on taxes paid, then Bill Gates would get tens of millions of votes, whereas the average Joe would get a few thousand.
That would be terrible, because it would mean that the country would be run exclusively by its richest citizens. Oh never mind; that's already how things work...
Here's an interesting article on income inequality in the United States:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_distribution_in_the_united_states
Highlight:
| Quote: | | A study by the Southern Economic Journal found that "71 percent of American economists believe the distribution of income in the US should be more equal, and 81 percent feel that the redistribution of income is a legitimate role for government." |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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It struck me as funny while reading through this thread at how often people quote wikipedia until it offers something they don't agree with; then it is denounced as unreliable, not peer-reviewed, or some other such dismissal...
just thought that was kinda interesting... |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Well Revjp Wikipedia has a lot to say about just everything and even if its unreliable, not authoritative etc. we all read it at times.
The main difference between me and Bill Gates along the lines of voting is that a prospective elected official will pay attention to Mr. Gates far sooner than to me even if we are both just citizens and we both have our opinions. Mr. Gates can pay for that attention, while, if in fact I can get that attention at all, must depend upon that official's nobler sentiments (it is arguable that they have any at all.) |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1273
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Pondering wrote: | | 45degreeN wrote: |
So I guess I didn't pay anything towards this war, does that mean I am not allowed to say anything about it? |
In my world? yes, that's right...I suspose I'm something of a Heinleinian Libertarian...those that contribute to the society have a say, those that are "wards of the state" should have the same rights as children in a family....appreciate your input, but you don't have decision authority....put then, that's just me |
So you think that people should have a say based on how many tax dollars they contribute? |
No, that's not what I said, nor what I am saying...I am saying that those that don't contribute to the society shouldn't get a say... paying taxes would be one way. Military service would be another...
We generally us a concept of "birth right", I'm more in favor of "earned right"...but then I'm hung up on that whole personal responsibility thing... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
No, that's not what I said, nor what I am saying...I am saying that those that don't contribute to the society shouldn't get a say... paying taxes would be one way. Military service would be another...
We generally us a concept of "birth right", I'm more in favor of "earned right"...but then I'm hung up on that whole personal responsibility thing... |
So you don't believe in democracy? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So you don't believe in democracy? |
Not really, that's why we live in a Republic... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | So you don't believe in democracy? |
Not really, that's why we live in a Republic... |
Do you agree with Pondering's idea that people should only get a say if they 'contribute'? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally I think everyone should undergo an IQ test to see if they are sufficiently intelligent enough to provide useful input, before they are allowed to contribute. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1273
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: |
No, that's not what I said, nor what I am saying...I am saying that those that don't contribute to the society shouldn't get a say... paying taxes would be one way. Military service would be another...
We generally us a concept of "birth right", I'm more in favor of "earned right"...but then I'm hung up on that whole personal responsibility thing... |
So you don't believe in democracy? |
Why would you think that? It's really simple...I believe that citizenship should be earned. period. full stop.
actually I'm an huge fan of democracy....I'm for more participation by the citizens even....more referendum, that sort of thing. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Does it make any difference if I am a veteran? Is that contributing?
Oh goody I knew that it was OK, whew... that was close.
I certainly hope that we can set aside these requirements now and get on with the issue at hand rather than attempting to seek others approval for basic rights. |
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