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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:00 am Post subject: Who is really in charge? |
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Hi All----------
Recently I have been discussing the sovereignty of God with a friend of mine.In our discussion I posed the idea that God,because of His abilities (or at least those attributed to Him), must either be working things in accordance with His will or not have the abilities attributed to Him.
So is God the all knowing all seeing omni-present God we were taught about in Sunday school?Does He have any limitations in His ability?
looking forward to your reply
much love---------knuckle |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Knuckle,
The Scriptures are clear that God is Omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. That has never been a debate for me. But I believe that God does have limitations. For example God cannot lie.
But I also think that, in the case of mans free will, God has another limitation placed upon Himself. God created us with the ability to choose or at least to choose before the fall of humanity. Because of that free choice, limitations were placed upon God. He, according to His design couldn't interfere with mans choice to sin. If He did then He would be in conflict with His perfect design. (paradox) I believe that God knew that man would sin or God isn't God. That, in no way, suggests that God created or was the author of sin, despite the suggestions of others on this forum.
Another thought is that If God had no limitations then we would see harmony in the world. That just isn't the case.
Angels have fallen and men have fallen.
Another thought is, If God had no limitations, then all people every where would be saved. Again, that just isn't the case.
I am looking forward to other thoughts on this subject.  |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Who is really in charge? |
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| knuckle wrote: | Hi All----------
Recently I have been discussing the sovereignty of God with a friend of mine.In our discussion I posed the idea that God,because of His abilities (or at least those attributed to Him), must either be working things in accordance with His will or not have the abilities attributed to Him.
So is God the all knowing all seeing omni-present God we were taught about in Sunday school?Does He have any limitations in His ability?
looking forward to your reply
much love---------knuckle |
Hi Knuckle,
Great topic!
God is and can only be All-Loving or Omnagapent.
It is that Love that is omnagapotent and etc.
Then that Love loves God or God loves himself
as potent and impotent,
as niscient and unniscient,
as present and absent,
as good and bad,
as etc and anti-etc.
Matthew 5:43-48.
Then in that all-Loving attitude or in that omnagapence,
God is
Love-potent even when impotent,
and doubly potent when potent, 2 Cor 12:9-10
Love-wise even when foolish,
and doubly-wise when wise, 1 Cor 1:25,
Love-niscient when ignorant,
and doubly niscient when niscient,
Love-perfect when imperfect,
and doubly perfect when perfect, Matthew 5:48,
Love-friendly when an enemy, Matthew 5:43-44,
and doubly friendly when a friend, Proverbs 17:17,
Love-present when absent,
and doubly present when present, Phil 1:21. 2:12.
Love-good when bad,
and doubly good when good, Romans 8:28, 35-39,
Love-strong when weak,
and doubly strong when strong, 2 Cor 12:9-10,
Love-rich-when poor,
and doubly rich when rich, 2 Cor 8:9,
Love-alive when dead,
and doubly alive when alive,
John 11:25-26,
Love-anti-etc when etc,
and doubly anti-etc when anti-etc.
It works for all words and their opposites,
and so clears up all the misunderstandings that automatically occur when we mis-call God all-good [or all-powerful or all-wise or all-etc] all the time
when he is only all-Love all the time
and good or potent or wise or etc most of the time
AND also bad or evil or impotent or foolish some of the time. Eccles 3:1-8.
Hi JB,
God cannot lie --- in Hate,
and God cannot tell the truth---in Hate,
but God can and does lie in Love,
just as God can and does tell the truth in Love. Eph 4:15.
Please see
Matthew 5:45 and 2 Thess 2:9-11 and Romans 4:17 for starters.
The only thing that God cannot do, only because he will not do it, is sin which is to hate any word or person or thing. 1 John 3:4.
Hope that helps.
Two things greater than all things rate,
The first is Love, and the second Hate.
And since we know how far from God is the 2nd above,
Heart of my heart, let us talk of Love!
With regards to Rudyard Kipling.
in the Omnagapotence of Love that loves God as God loves himself: as all words and their frienemopposites,
atoz
Last edited by atoz on Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:40 am; edited 2 times in total |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi Knuckle:
| Quote: | | So is God the all knowing all seeing omni-present God we were taught about in Sunday school?Does He have any limitations in His ability? |
I believe the only limitations that God has is determined by the amount of faith we have in ourselves.
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Mat 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Mat 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
It's not God who is limited it's our own faith in ourselves to believe that we can do it.
If ye have faith, ye shall say, and nothing shall be impossible unto you..
It's all about You.. 
And who do we put our faith in?
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
And where is God?
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
there it is.. in You again..LOL..
You are your own limitation.
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The only limitation is the ability to recognize and believe that you have the power to change the world in You.
Hugs Knuckle..
Lone |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1360
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Knuckle,
The Scriptures are clear that God is Omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. That has never been a debate for me. But I believe that God does have limitations. For example God cannot lie. |
JB, there is a HUGE difference between saying God cannot lie, and saying God WILL NOT lie.
Can God lie? Of course He can.
But would He? No. What would be the point? Is that a limitation? Hardly. WE are the ones limited - by our egos, emotions, and fears, that make us do things to hurt ourselves and others. That is limitation. Truth (God) = freedom. Freedom has no limitations!
| JB wrote: |
But I also think that, in the case of mans free will, God has another limitation placed upon Himself. God created us with the ability to choose or at least to choose before the fall of humanity. Because of that free choice, limitations were placed upon God. He, according to His design couldn't interfere with mans choice to sin. |
Are you familiar with the story of Moses and Pharoah?
Joshua and the Canaanites?
King Saul?
David and Bathsheba?
Exile of the Israelites?
| JB wrote: |
Another thought is that If God had no limitations then we would see harmony in the world. That just isn't the case. |
So what you are saying is, the world is a hell hole because God is unable to do anything about it?
| JB wrote: |
Angels have fallen and men have fallen.
Another thought is, If God had no limitations, then all people every where would be saved. Again, that just isn't the case. |
Why is that? I mean about everyone being saved. Who is eliminated?
| JB wrote: |
I am looking forward to other thoughts on this subject. |
Well here ya go.........  |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Eleven, are you not familiar with the scriptures?
Titus 1:1-2 is clear. Paul a Bond Servant of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago.
Eleven, did you see that? Let me help you a little more.
The Greek word for cannot lie is Apseudes which means incapable of falsehood. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I think that you should reconsider your post. It has some serious holes in it.
The truth of the matter is, According to Titus 1;1-2 if you say that God can lie then you are saying that God has limitations and you rob us, as believers ,of true unchanging hope in His Promises.
The truth of the matter is, the world is a hell hole because Christians don't do anything about it. If more men and women were filled with the Holy Spirit Power then this world wouldn't be quite the way it is. We aren't puppets. Though we can't fix the world, we can have an impact on it. My God is that big.
Acts 2-4 What happened when the Christians were Baptized in the Holy Spirit? Or was that just for the Apostolic age?
Eleven, don't use human reason to make Spiritual conclusions, it results in heresy. The Church has enough of that already.  |
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ragman13
Labrador
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 316
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | (1) Some things undeniably exist (e.g., I cannot deny my own existence).
(2) My nonexistence is possible.
(3) Whatever has the possibility not to exist is currently caused to exist by another.
(4) There cannot be an infinite regress of current causes of existence.
(5) Therefore, a first uncaused cause of my current existence exists.
(6) This uncaused cause must be infinite, unchanging, all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-perfect.
(7) This infinitely perfect Being is appropriately called “God.”
(8) Therefore, God exists. |
Geisler, Norman L.: Christian Apologetics. Grand Rapids : Baker Book House, 1976, S. 238
| knuckle wrote: | | So is God the all knowing all seeing omni-present God we were taught about in Sunday school? |
Yes He is.
| knuckle wrote: | | Does He have any limitations in His ability? |
Yes He does.
There are 3 categories of existence 1) possible to exist, 2) impossible to exist, and 3) necessary to exist.
We are possible to exist since we do exist and can not exist. Things that are impossible to exist are things like square triangles, once it is understood what a triangle is and what a square is we know that it is impossible for a square triangle to exist even for God to make one, so yes God has limitations in that sense. The last is a necessary existence which God is, and since God is necessary He cannot stop existing. So there is another limitation for God. |
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ragman13
Labrador
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 316
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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JB wrote
| Quote: | | Eleven, don't use human reason to make Spiritual conclusions, it results in heresy. The Church has enough of that already. |
It is impossible for us to not use reason to make spiritual conclusions. You use reason to prove why reason should not be used. You use reason to understand difficulties in the Bible. For example, Does God change or not. I can find scripture to support both claims. You have to apply reason to spiritual things if you don’t that is what results in heresy. And yes the Church has enough of that already. |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ragman,
I stand corrected. My intent, which I thought was obvious is that human reason apart from the moving of the Holy Spirit or Rhema of God is not valid for scriptural interpretation. Intellectual assent to historical facts is much different than a revelation from God that give us new truth. You are right and I thank you for bringing that to my attention. However the issue still stands that Human reason alone might support the thought that God can lie but when it is tested against the Word of God, it fails the acid test.
In the future I will attempt to be more thorough in my statements God Bless you and thanks. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2407
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | Let me help you a little more. |
Don't forget:
Heb 6:18 KJV That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2407
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | | However the issue still stands that Human reason alone might support ... |
JB, you might find the term "human sensibilities" to be more accurate than human reason.
Yehu
And with each choice imposed a limitation upon Himself. (Which includes the fact that the future does not exist.) |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Hi All-----------
a lot of good posts here.
So if God cannot lie and He declares the end from the beginning but the future doesn't exist He must be a very hands on God.Directing things as they go,so to speak.
Does God know the end or does He plan the end and carry out the plan?
much love---------knuckle |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: |
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morning lone---------
Is it disbelief (I know it can't be) or unbelief (I don't know if it can or not) that is the limiting factor?
Lets say that a certain church was praying for a family member of the deacon but that family member was an atheist
Or the soldier in the fox hole who isn't sure if there is a God or not but has to cry out to someone
much love------------knuckle |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Yehu,
Once again I must admit that I am wrong. After stating human reason in my last post, I found myself looking once again at the Logos of God. The great Greek philosophers assigned reason as a divine gift not a human ability. Sensibility is the human emotion or response to how we feel about a situation. So I must make a correction to my post. Human reason isn't a part of the human thought process but reason is given to us by the Rhema of God or through divine revelation.
Could somebody pass the Excedrin? I think I am getting another headache.    |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: |
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Knuckle,
Now I am left in another quandary. If there is no future, which seems to be a legitimate thought,how then could the prophets of old speak of future events?
I think it is time for a break. Maybe my brain isn't capable of going that deep. Oh thats right it isn't my brain it is God's revelation. |
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