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bobf
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 177
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 Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Bob, sorry, I have no clue what you meant by that. |
Since A&E were corrupted they were created corruptible by God from the beginning. We will be incorruptible in the future. So A&E were not created like we will be.
God could have made A&E incorruptible to begin with but did not. Why? Perhaps they would not have lacked certain experiences:
[1] experience of the consequence of evil
[2] experience of overcoming evil with good
[3] experience of trusting God in the face of trouble
Maybe God wanted to impart desirable character traits into their nature.
| Quote: | | Satan had an agenda, and found he could further his agenda by making Adam corrupt ... |
No disagreement there.
| Quote: | | The command of God that they should not eat was sufficient in and of itself to assure that neither Adam nor Eve would eat of the fruit WITHOUT outside influence. |
God did not know about the outside influence?
| Quote: | | Now were Adam and Eve ON THEIR OWN to have decided to partake, then I concede knuckle’s and trettept’s views might have some merit, but I would hasten to add that if such were Adam’s own action, then no redemption would have been made for Man. |
My understanding is that God redeems the ungodly because of God's goodness, not because of lesser degrees of ungodliness in the ungodly.
| Quote: | HOWEVER, are you suggesting that God brings suffering on His own for His personal fun and enjoyment?  |
Of course God is not sadistic. The possibility you omitted is that God has given man an experience of evil & suffering for man's benefit. Christ is our example.
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
| Quote: | | Paul’s thorn in the flesh was a “pain in the neck.” The phrase is an idiom Paul used to refer to the Judaisers sent out by James to undo the gospel of Paul. |
I think it refers to the persecution Paul suffered at the hands of unbelievers. Whether or not you consider it some kind of suffering, it still demonstrates that one event can be caused/purposed by two agents: The thorn in the flesh was BOTH a messenger of Satan AND given by God to humble Paul.
There are many events in scriptures showing good and evil causes for one event:
- Satan moved David to number Israel. So did God.
- Pharoah hardened his heart. So did God.
- Satan bruised Christ. It pleased God to bruise Christ.
- Joseph's brothers meant for evil what God meant for good.
- The destroyer killing the first born of Egypt. The LORD killing the first born of Egypt.
- Satan tempted Christ. The Spirit led Christ to be tempted.
- Satan sifting Peter prior to his conversion
- And of course Job.
| Quote: | | The evil done by Joseph’s brothers was their own, no? |
Yes, it was there own - God did not force them to do evil, they chose to. And yet that very evil was "meant" (planned, calculated) by God.
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.
Genesis 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Genesis 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. 8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
| Quote: | | The crucifixion? Well one can hardly dispute with any suffering God places upon Himself. |
Except that Christ calls on us to take up our cross too. If you look up "suffer" "suffered" "suffering" in the NT you will see that suffering is a required for all followers of Christ and yields fruit in us.
| Quote: | | Job was more concerned with the false religious views of Job’s so called comforters. |
I don't dispute that that is a big part of the story. But so is the other part about God & Satan and about a righteous man enduring suffering to bring him forth like gold.
| Quote: | | Allowance can hardly be seen as direct agency. |
I see no difference between allowing and causing when One is omnipotent. Besides, God told Satan what to do and not to do.
| Quote: | | Job should be viewed as an early parable. Surely Jesus wasn’t teaching factual history when he told a parable was He? |
I have no problem viewing it as a parable but even in a parable, the symbols for God, Satan, mankind teach us about God, Satan and mankind. In the case of the book of Job, no symbols are used for God or Satan.
| Quote: |  Right, and Jesus didn’t declare that Moses added in divorce on his own, irrespective of God’s truth? |
I agree that Moses gave them substandard laws. I'm not sure it was done all "on his own" however.
Ezekiel 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live.
1Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless...
| Quote: | | Indeed so, Bob, indeed so. |
Wooo Hooo! A point of agreement  |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2420
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| bobf wrote: | | My understanding is that God redeems the ungodly because of God's goodness |
Yet such goodness does not extend toward the angelic beings in the heavenly realm? There must be a reason for such, lest God be capricious. The angels fell on their own, whereas A&E were pushed.
A&E were not created corruptible. They were created so that the ToKoGaE would have certain biological effects once God deemed the time right for them to partake. Now if you feel comfortable to speculate about the need for certain “experience” by all means, let your speculation establish your theology Nonetheless, you still have God purposing Adam to fall just so He could curse them, hence you believe that sadism is ok if people learn from it.
| bobf wrote: | | God did not know about the outside influence? |
Never saw it coming.
| bobf wrote: | | Of course God is not sadistic. The possibility you omitted is that God has given man an experience of evil & suffering for man's benefit. Christ is our example. |
Again you say sadism if ok for a good cause. And again I say this is sick.
| bobf wrote: | There are many events in scriptures showing good and evil causes for one event:
“Satan moved David to number Israel. So did God.”
“Satan bruised Christ. It please God to bruise Christ.”
“Satan tempted Christ. The Spirit led Christ to be tempted.” |
You know, I think I begin to understand who you are. The veil is lifted from my eyes. You believe God IS Satan. This now all begins to make sense from this perspective.
| bobf wrote: | | I see no difference between allowing and causing when One is omnipotent. |
BINGO! God and Satan are one. Nothing Satan does is of himself. So when sadism occurs, and God allows it, then God also causes it. Your God is sadistic bob, you just said so. And all the evil Man does is actually God causing it.
Thank you for this elucidating discussion bobf.
Yehushuan
(Got to keep the loonies on the path.) |
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bobf
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | Yet such goodness does not extend toward the angelic beings in the heavenly realm? |
I think it does, but that's another subject.
| Quote: | | A&E were not created corruptible. |
Then they were created incorruptible and it would have been impossible for them to have been corrupted. But they were corrupted.
| Quote: | | Nonetheless, you still have God purposing Adam to fall just so He could curse them, hence you believe that sadism is ok if people learn from it. |
Sadism is "derivation of pleasure as a result of the suffering of others." God does not do anything remotely like that nor was God's purpose to curse them.
| Quote: | | Never saw it coming |
Yet Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.
| Quote: | | Again you say sadism if ok for a good cause. And again I say this is sick. |
That's not sadism. Ever suffered in a dentist's chair?
| Quote: | | You believe God IS Satan. |
Nope. God is not Satan.
Thorn in the flesh =
[1] messenger of Satan
[2] given (by whom?) to humble Paul
Two agents. One effect. Two opposite intents.
| Quote: | | BINGO! God and Satan are one. |
Were they one they would have the same intent. Opposite intents.
| Quote: | | Nothing Satan does is of himself. |
It is of himself. Satan has an evil will/mind and uses it to make evil choices.
| Quote: | | So when sadism occurs, and God allows it, then God also causes it. |
I'm not saying "allows" and "causes" are exactly identical. If I throw a ball up I caused it. If I let a ball drop, I "allowed" it to drop and gravity was the direct cause. Either way I'm responsible for where the ball goes. God was responsible for Job because God "allowed" Satan to do exactly what God knew he would do. In fact God told Satan to go for it.
Job understood that God was doing: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him..."
God understood that God was doing: "and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
| Quote: | | Your God is sadistic bob, you just said so. |
Nope. For God to be sadistic then the purpose of suffering would have to be for God's ENJOYMENT. It matters not a whit whether God "allows" suffering that He could stop or "causes" suffering directly. What matters is whether God is allowing/causing suffering for His ENJOYMENT. He's not! |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Jamtomorrow and wilber,
I am sorry about the delay to your post. I have written down some thoughts and I am sure that I will get stones thrown at me but hey, I am wearing a helmet.
This will be a some what lengthy study so I thought that I would do it in sections. I have several points that I feel need to be addressed so please bare with me as I work my way through my thoughts.
My first thought on this text (Romans 5:18-19) Is the Greek text. Though I am not a Greek Scholar, I will certainly give this study a shot.
Romans 5:18 (NASB)
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Romans 5:18 (KJV)
So then by the offense of one (judgment came) upon all men to condemnation; even so by righteousness of one (the free gift) came upon all men into justification of life.
The NASB falls short on this text. If you were to look closely you would see that the King James Version include the word upon. That word is eis in the Greek. Upon is a quite familiar Old Testament thought. Judges 3:10 and the Spirit came upon. Judges 6:34 and the Spirit came upon. Judges 11:29 and the Spirit came upon. Judges 14;16 and the Spirit came upon. Judges 14;19 and the Spirit came upon.
( John 14:17) in the second half of this verse we read “But ye know Him for He dwells with you and will (at a future time) dwell in you.” That future time would be Pentecost.
In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came upon for the most part, Prophets, Priests and Kings. In essence, Before the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit came upon people. After Pentecost the Holy Spirit would dwell in people (Acts 2). John 14:17 strongly supports that Biblical idea. If we now go back to Romans 5:18 we see that the salvation came upon all men not in all men. There is a big difference. In John 14:17 the Greek word for in is en not eis.
Every Pauline reference that I reviewed that refers to in Christ uses the word en when he referred to those who were in Christ.
John and Paul both use eis when referring to the Holy Spirit coming upon people.
Salvation under the covenant of Grace begins with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Many use the verse in Revelation 3:20 to support this. Behold I stand at the door and I knock, if any man hears my voice and opens the door I will come into Him. Notice He is upon them until He comes into them.
When Paul was walking the road to Damascus before his conversion, he was asked a question by the Lord, “Paul, why do you kick against the goads”? Goad mean pricking of the heart. This fits nicely with Acts 2:37 and when they heard this they were pricked in their hearts.
If you would like I can give you other references in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit came upon people and they resisted Him but I am sure that this isn't necessary.
After some prayer and study, I find no difficulties with this text. It supports what I believe quite consistently. It doesn't support UR.
Guys I hope this helps. There is more to come. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2663
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Who is really in charge? |
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The Bible clearly shows that satan controls the majority of the Christian world.
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
God has warned us of this Biblical fact.
Sunday worship services proves, the power satan has over the vast majority of the Christian worship.
Satan, thru his control over some men placed Sunday as a day of woership over the day God said to observe.
Daniel 7:25.....'think to change times and laws' |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Silver Surfer,
Is it safe to assume that you are SDA? |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2663
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Silver Surfer,
Is it safe to assume that you are SDA? |
Yes, I am.
God raised up the SDA church to give the EverLasting Gospel message of Revelation 14:6-16.
The Gospel message contains how to pass God's Investigative Judgment Day......
Calling people to come back to worshipping God, on the Lord's Day, the 7th day sabbath......
The Mark of the Beast scenerio.....
Christ's 2nd Coming..... |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Silver Surfer,
What is your take on the Universalists? They believe that Romans 5:18 teaches that all are going to heaven. What do you think?
JB |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2663
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| JB wrote: | Silver Surfer,
What is your take on the Universalists? They believe that Romans 5:18 teaches that all are going to heaven. What do you think?
JB |
Jesus Christ never taught any such thing.
HE told about the realities of HellFire, and who would be there.
I think it is a grave mistake to base one beliefs on just one Scripture text, excluding all the others which shed light more fully on the subject.
The Bible clearly shows that the vast majority of mankind would choose to be lost (Matthew 7:13,14) |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 690
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Everyone please get back to the OP now. Thanks. God bless. |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1367
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | JB wrote: | Silver Surfer,
What is your take on the Universalists? They believe that Romans 5:18 teaches that all are going to heaven. What do you think?
JB |
Jesus Christ never taught any such thing.
HE told about the realities of HellFire, and who would be there.
I think it is a grave mistake to base one beliefs on just one Scripture text, excluding all the others which shed light more fully on the subject.
The Bible clearly shows that the vast majority of mankind would choose to be lost (Matthew 7:13,14) |
I want to jump in here for a second to ask a question, strictly for philosophical purposes.
What would be the consequences if everyone DID go to heaven? |
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JB
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Eleven,
You asked, "what would be the consequence if everyone did go to heaven"?
The answer is simple, then Jesus wasted a lot of time creating that other place.
 (Just joking)
Actually as much as we would all like for all of humanity to go to heaven, that doesn't mean that it will happen. Just because you or I feel a certain way about something that doesn't mean that it will come to pass. It is sad, but not all people will be there.
Go Bless you and Keep seeking the King. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2663
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | JB wrote: | Silver Surfer,
What is your take on the Universalists? They believe that Romans 5:18 teaches that all are going to heaven. What do you think?
JB |
Jesus Christ never taught any such thing.
HE told about the realities of HellFire, and who would be there.
I think it is a grave mistake to base one beliefs on just one Scripture text, excluding all the others which shed light more fully on the subject.
The Bible clearly shows that the vast majority of mankind would choose to be lost (Matthew 7:13,14) |
I want to jump in here for a second to ask a question, strictly for philosophical purposes.
What would be the consequences if everyone DID go to heaven? |
By using the word 'everyone', I assume you even mean satan and all the millions of evil angles, also ?
Since satan delights on pain and all kinds of sufferings....how could heaven be anything but pure misery while satan would influence both angels and evil men to pursue the course they began on earth again.
Hitler, Nero, Stalin, ect...... and all the other would-be conquerors would attempt again make a slave-race of everyone they could.
Is that what you'd want heaven to be like ?
I prefer God's Investigative Judgment process, whereby God investigates everyones' past history, to determine who is 'Safe to Save'. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Who is really in charge? |
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| knuckle wrote: | Hi All----------
Recently I have been discussing the sovereignty of God with a friend of mine.In our discussion I posed the idea that God,because of His abilities (or at least those attributed to Him), must either be working things in accordance with His will or not have the abilities attributed to Him.
So is God the all knowing all seeing omni-present God we were taught about in Sunday school?Does He have any limitations in His ability?
looking forward to your reply
much love---------knuckle |
Psalms 119:96
(KJV) I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
(NIV) To all perfection I see a limit;
but your commands are boundless.
Apparently, God's word has no limitation, and is beyond perfection, even.
God is in charge. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2663
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| eleven wrote: | | What would be the consequences if everyone DID go to heaven? |
Absolute Chaos !
Wars....diseases...pain and sufferings of every kind and discription !!! |
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