Any Catholics? One of Gods little Newbies :)

wilber · Banned Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 581

Whilst I believe that there are many Godly people who attend the RC church, I must say, that I feel the organisation itself is far from the truth as revealed in scripture.

cb wrote:

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 716 Location: WV

What can I say to this link? Same old misunderstood teachings, illogical thinking and unhistorical propaganda that has been traveling around the Protestant world since the Reformation. I'll respond to some of it, but I don't know if I will have the time to get through all of it. Here are some the accusations of heresy leveled at Catholics in this link and my responses.

Accusation 1:
OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ....310

Response:
2 Maccabees 12:44-46 "for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."

You don't have this in your Bible because Martin Luther chose to remove it when he decided on his own authority what should be Scripture. Protestants use a Bible that was never used by Christianity before 1529.

The sign of the cross goes against Scripture??? "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit" Perferctly Biblical.

Accusation 2:
Wax Candles introduced in church about....320

Nonsense. The Jews have always used candles and so have Christians. It doesn't go against anything Biblical. By the way, just how do you think they lit churches before electricity, hmmm??

Accusation 3:
The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted....394

I don't know about when daily Mass began, but so what? When did Protestants start meeting on Wednesdays? Nothing against the Bible here either.

Accusation 4
The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, "Mother of God", as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in....431

Response:
Luke 1:43: "how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
If Jesus is truly God-made-man, then Mary is truly the Mother of God. Being the mother of Jesus, Mary is also the Mother of God. Obviously Mary did not exist before God, but she became the Mother of God in time. Nothing against the Bible here either.

Accusation 5:
Priests began to dress differently from the laity in....500

Maybe, but so what? Nothing against the Bible here.

Accusaton 6:
The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great about the year....593

Response:

There is ample evidence that early Christians prayed for the dead. Ancient Christian tomb inscriptions frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. This practice makes sense only if early Christians believed in Purgatory even if they didn't use that name for it.

Accusation 7:

The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I, 600 years after Christ....600

The Word of God forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (I Cor. 14:9).

Response:

I'm sorry you don't know Latin, but it was a commonly understood language of the time and that's not the type of language 1 Cor. 14:9 is referring to any way.

Well, that's it for tonight. I really feel like I'm wasting my time because no matter what I write, I think you're mind is already set against it. Good night.

Maverick1337 · Goldfish Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 64

I actually just had a long discussion about this verse. You can read its synoptic in Mark, which explains the unpardonable Sin of not accepting Jesus.

Mark 3:28-29 and Matthew 12:32 go hand in hand as do many other things in the synoptic gospels Smile

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, NEITHER in this world, NEITHER in the world to come.

You wrote either in place of NEITHER which would completely change its meaning.

Mark 3:28-29 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:But he that blashpeme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

~~God Bless!!~~

Maverick1337 · Goldfish Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 64

#1 Crossing yourself is one of the things I really like about the Catholic church and would even adopt as something I'd do myself, I think its symbolism is WONDERFUL, totally agree with you 100% there. Rhetorical question - Wheres Mary go ?

#2 I agree with too, I see no problem with candles. Anything primative scares people.

#3 Mass which from my perspective is church every day which in my opinion is also wonderuful.

#4 Not so much. Say you order an ice sculpture and it was delivered in a crate. Do you give thanks to the guy who carved it or the crate it came in?

By no means am I comparing Mary to a wooden crate, but thats how I look at it. She was just fufilling her part as a child of God and should be respected as such. But not worshipped.

#5 Dressing different does not concern me at all.

#6 Praying to the dead in what sense? I pray for the dead all the time. Those dead in Christ and those dead in life but I don't pray TOO them. Even the passage you posted says FOR and not TOO.

Also just because early Christians did something doesn't mean its right. Early Christians BURNED pegans. That doesn't mean we should do it.

#7 Is something I haven't covered. I am new to Christianity in all aspects. Just calling them as I see them though.

The only things I'm against are those things that are openly ignored in scripture.

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 716 Location: WV

Maverick, I'm so sorry I haven't had time to get on here. First or all, I'm amazed to find someone who doesn't condemn everything Catholic. I find few Protestants willing to say the Catholics have anything right.

I've been pondering the difference you noted in Matt. 12-32. On that I guess I don't see too much difference in the wording and it's meaning. How do you see the difference between "neither, neither" and "either, neither?"

Mary and the Saints, in Catholic theology, are not anything we worship, but Protestants never seem to get that bit no matter how many times you tell them.

Catholics see those people, Mary and the saints, as with Jesus right now, as part of His body. And wherever Jesus is, they are with Him, praying as He did for all of us, just as you and I on earth can pray for each other. We pray for God's will, all of us, living in Christ, the living and the dead, who really aren't dead because they're living in Christ, and Mary is especially close to Him because she is the woman who bore Him for us. We only pray to them as a part of Christ's body. Does that make any sense to you?

Catholics don't draw a line between living people and dead people in the spiritual sense. Protestants tend to see things more on the physical side when it comes to life and death. I've never understood exactly what their pholosophy is on what happens when you die. You go to immediate judgement? You are either saved or you are damned? Most of us aren't perfect enough to go straight into heaven. I don't feel I am. Purgatory makes a lot of sense and it doesn't go against Scripture.

Finally, can you give me any historical evidence that eary Christians burned Pagans?

Maverick1337 · Goldfish Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 64

1692 witchcraft ( Not today's Wicca but similar / Neo-paganism ) was considered heresy punishable by burning at the stake in European countries and in Colonial America they would hang you. This was put in place by old Puritans/Calvinists which was a dominate sect at the time resulting in at least 140 trials in our country alone. Trials were almost as bad as the burning/hanging. They didn't however burn anyone in our own country. But however they did burn several "heretics" in Scotland.

Also as far as I know, St. Augustine (won't use this as ammo, promise Wink

) also burned heretics, Jews, and pagans at the stake to "give them a taste of the after-life".

A lot of sad stories I've read. Saddest part is, most of it was done in the name of our Father.

P.S. The water is in EITHER that cup or that jar. Have water.
The water is in NEITHER that cup or that jar. Waterless.

Thats the difference I was referring to Smile

~~God Bless!!~~

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 716 Location: WV

O.k. Maverick. Good analogy. On the other issue, I thought we were talking early Christians. Those, to me, are pre-300 A.D.

I think I have dealt pretty much with Mary and the saints in heaven. Catholics see things differently than Protestants, but I deny we go against Scripture. No Catholic doctrine states Mary or the saints have anything to do with saving us. Catholic doctrine teaches Jesus is our one and only Savior.

Let's go on with the list.

10. The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas, in the year ....610

Response:

The true history is that the title Pope is from the Italian word for "Papa" - father.

11. The kissing of the Pope's feet began in....709

Kissing is not reserved to divine worship and can be legitimately offered to creatures without committing a sin, if done with the right intention. If the person doing the kissing intends it as an expression of divine worship and he offers it to a creature, (as was probably the case of the pagan Cornelius) then he commits the sin of idolatry. If the person doing the kissing intends it merely as an expression of respect, affection, submission, etc., for a fellow creature, then it is not a sin.

12. The Temporal power of the Popes began....750

Response:

Temporal powers were given by men and taken away by men at various times throughout history. It is not a sin to hold worldly power.

13. Worship of the cross, of Images and relics was authorized in....788

Response:

Catholic doctrine states the worship of anything other than God is idolatry.I'll write what my Church teaches about idolatry. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you should read some time.

"The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recall this rejection of "idols, {of} silver and gold, the work of men's hand. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty:"Those who make them are ike them; so are all who trust in them" God, however, is the "living God"who gives ife and intervenes in history. (p. 512) Just because we have images doesn't mean we worship them.

I'll get back to the list later. This could take a while since the link makes 41 different accusations.

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 716 Location: WV

This could take a while, but I'll keep going. Maybe somebody will get some good out of it. Maybe even myself because some accusations, like this next one, forces me examine just exactly what my Church does teach about these things.

14. Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized in....850

Holy water is a sacremental. Sacrementals are things consecrated for religious use. Think of them like the flag. Don't you stand honor a flag at a game? Just as we have respect for those things related to our country, we have respect for those things related to God. Some Protestants still use oil as a sacramental.

Sacramentals are really just objects which serve to remind you of Christ. Holy water reminds us of our baptism. This should remind us to pray and try to live a holy life. That's about the simplest explanation I can give you.

This doesn't go against Scripture.

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

....edit... Smile