Any Catholics? One of Gods little Newbies :)

Maverick1337 · Goldfish Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 64

I read 1st Timothy and part of the 2nd last night in my down time during work and wow, just wow. This book is wonderful.

A lot of things came to my attention in that book. A lot of things Catholic. Now don't go and get mad just yet. I'm new to the Word of God so I might not be understanding something. I consider myself a man of Christ without the whole "what kinda christian are you?" tag that I see a lot of. Some things I don't understand.

I find myself asking "What in the world is this guy talking about" when I listen to Catholic teachings about why fish are colored a certain way and 17 ways music effects our mood on a show and NEVER in my time spent watching these shows or listening have I ever heard them say anything from the Bible

1 Timothy
1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies,
which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

They also have their saints they pray to and Jesus' mother.

2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Not eating meat on fridays and countless teachings of bishops and what-nots.(I understand giving up meat for God as a sacrifice but if this IS giving it up for God, shouldn't it be done in private as Jesus said in Matthews?)

1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats , which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

and

Matthew
6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Some things I'd like clerified if possible

~~God Bless!!~~[/b]
_________________
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place
unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith
the Lord.

12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give
him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

atoz · Last edited by atoz on Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 716 Location: WV

I'm Catholic so I'll try to understand your problem. You say you read Timothy 1 & 2 and a lot of things Catholic came to mind. Not surprising because there are a lot of Catholic belifes in there.

How verses 3 & 4 lead to this comment, I don't know.

wilber · Banned Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 581

Hi cballard - I don't understand some of your answer and wonder if you could clarify for me (I'm not a Roman Catholic).

Jamtomorrow · Banned Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 22

I too am puzzled by the notion of praying to a Saint to pray on one's behalf, like some sort of advocate. This has an affinity with shamanism, to my mind.
_________________
I am proud to hold the wolf's pelt...

Diane · Cobra Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 470

Concerning praying to the saints:

Saints are believed to be already in heaven with God.....therefore, as I understand it - being raised Catholic myself, Catholics may ask a saint to pray for them just as we ask each other to pray....as the saint is alive with God in heaven as we are alive with God here on earth.

ie.....Saint Francis please pray for me would be the same as Joe Blow please pray for me. Very Happy

Di
_________________
God is love and love never fails.

The Beautiful Heresy – If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save all of His creation makes me a heretic, sign me up.

wilber · Banned Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 581

Hi Diane
Interesting topic. I think my problem is that I haven't seen any scriptural basis for believing that there is this sort of communication between us and saints who have gone on before and it would IMO present some real problems.
E.g. How many people can Mary listen to at once? If my earthly father can hear me and assist me then that might encourage me to spend considerable time communicating with him rather than with God.
It assumes that heaven exists concurrently in time as we do and that the saints have this connection with earth and can be employed in this way.
Any scriptures?
The only one I can think of is:
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;...
-and remembering that the word 'witness' is 'martyr' I don't think it necessarily indicates that the saints are watching us

wilber

Jamtomorrow · Banned Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 22

May I ask from the depths of my ignorance, what is a saint?

When we see "the saints" mentioned in the epistles, what was the Greek word used? And what contemporary significance did it have?
_________________
I am proud to hold the wolf's pelt...

Diane · Cobra Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 470

Hiya Wilber!!

That is uncanny....I thought of the same verse but decided not to post it. Hmmmm.

I agree with you. I only wanted to explain where Catholics are coming from, as I understand praying to saints.

I do believe that God hears those prayers though....and sees the heartfelt need Very Happy

He is so good.

Luvya, Di
_________________
God is love and love never fails.

The Beautiful Heresy – If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save all of His creation makes me a heretic, sign me up.

wilber · Banned Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 581

wilber · Banned Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 581

Hi jamtommorrow - is that like jelly?

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 738

Wilber,
hagio or hagios means to be set apart. It can be applied to a ceremonial separation of the utensils used in the temple. It can also be applied to the salvation experience but Paul uses it in a third way in 1 Thes.5:23 he prays that the saints be sanctified through and through. Again sanctify means something other than salvation. It seems as if it is used in this application as growing away from sin through the grace of God. Paul refers to us as saints. I believe that this too means holy one or set apart.

I hope this helps.

Jamtomorrow · Banned Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 22

Thank you wilber, and JB. Very enlightening.

Be careful how you use the term "jelly", Wilber; it means entirely different things on each side of the Atlantic. If I am ever to visit the USA, I will have to go by the name of jellytomorrow. Then, when I came back to the UK I would have to be renamed jellotomorrow. And if I go south of Watford I will have to call myself conservetomorrow. So you can see why I am so reluctant to open this particular can of worms.
_________________
I am proud to hold the wolf's pelt...

Maverick1337 · Goldfish Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 64

On the not eating meat part on Fridays, I've seen it used as a sense of pride instead of its true purpose many times. Which can be applied to countless things, not just this.

On the saint part - God DID NOT say theres only one mediator except this group. He said there is ONE. Thats why I don't understand it.

Also I've heard another Catholic thing I don't understand. As far as I've researched , the Bible says NOTHING about suicide sending you to hell .

I had another question but it slipped my mind Razz

~~God Bless!!~~

Edit: Got it ~ Why don't they teach from the Bible instead of teachings from a previous pope/bishop/writer or whatever

Also ~ Purgatory - Where'd this idea come from?
_________________
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place
unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith
the Lord.

12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give
him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 716 Location: WV

Maverick, you have a lot of questions and I don't have much time, especially today. I'll give it a shot.

Mt 12:32: And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven: but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus implies here that some sins can be forgiven in the next world. Sin cannot be forgiven in Hell and there can be no sin in Heaven, so where does sin get forgiven in the next world?

1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This cannot refer to eternal loss in hell, for there no one is saved. It can not refer to heaven for there no one suffers. It must refer to a middle state whre the soul temporarily suffers loss so that it may gain heaven. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

Suicide is murder.

Nothing Catholics teach goes against Scripture. Over the centuries doctrines have been examined and the Church comes to understand them more deeply, but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant. We do use Scripture, just not the way I hear Protestant preachers use it. They pull a bit from here and there to make some pronouncement about their personal understanding. A lot of times it goes against traditional Christian beliefs such as the necessity of baptism. We believe unity of belief.

Sorry, I'm out of time. I hope this helps some.