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dabmci
Hamster
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Wylie
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
I too don't believe Jesus believed in the word Trinity as you describe it to be. I do believe he knew who he was. where he came from and where he was going back to. Remember GOD does not share his GLORY with anyone.
GOD is the LIFE GIVER, SAVIOR, JUDGE, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. Just some of many titles he has.
Remember that. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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dabmci,
When I am discussing other people's beliefs I approach the conversation from their perspective. I agree that God doesn't give His glory to any of the false gods the nations worship, however, he does give glory to His servants.  The ones who strive to bring honor and glory to the Father.
Please tell me what exactly is your belief regarding God. |
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dabmci
Hamster
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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TBax,
Sure I can do that:
Well:
1. I believe there is only one GOD.
2. I believe that GOD has communicated in Days past who he was comming in many shapes forms ( IE a cloud, a burning bush, The Angel of the Lord, etc) I believe he also stated the he would come in the flesh by way of Jesus the Christ.
3. When I think of GOD I think of a what he is. Now the who he is I also let the bible tell me no matter if it is understandable or not. I am finite (not knowing everything) I understand that Jesus calls himself the Son of God making himself equal with the Father. The Holy Sprit is also Spoken of as God in the book of Acts. To be honest with you I really need to lay down the passages for each item I talk about because it only my word is I don't offer scripture to back it up.
I will get more indept tonight when I am off of work and can give you my full attention. I enjoy talking with people who can back up what they say with scriptures not just lip service. I am truly here to learn and pass on what I know not to judge. I will get back with you soon TTFN |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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dabmci,
You are doing this during work?  
When you get more in depth please show why you believe those who represent God are God, like The Angel of the Lord?
Jesus also represented God, and was sent by Him. That doesn't make Jesus God though.
Please show the scripture that shows God would come in the flesh.
| dabmci wrote: | | Jesus calls himself the Son of God making himself equal with the Father. |
The Bible says Adam was a son of God. Do you believe Adam was God? The angels are called sons of God as well. Your conclusion isn't warrented. Perhaps you can clarify latter.
| dabmci wrote: | | The Holy Sprit is also Spoken of as God in the book of Acts. |
The holy spirit was poured out on the disciples. It comes from God and can be portioned out.
Acts 2:17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh,
| dabmci wrote: | | To be honest with you I really need to lay down the passages for each item I talk about because it only my word is I don't offer scripture to back it up. |
Look forward to it. Till then.  |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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The definition of the Holy Spirit as meaning "active force" doesn't pass the usage test in scripture. Take for example following:
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
You CAN'T grieve force. That makes no sense and it makes no sense because the Holy Spirit is NOT the ACTIVE FORCE of God. Additionally, Jesus told the desciples that God was SPIRIT. If He did such then the disciples must have understood what "spirit" means otherwise the utterance would have been in vain. And we all know what spirit is but we all don't have a clue what is meant by the meaning of "active force". Just some nonsense terminology from what I can tell. Can someone tell me what forces are INACTIVE?
Paul |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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We are told the poor in spirit are blessed:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
So would that mean the poor in active force? (Same word is used here as for the "Spirit" of the Holy Spirit - pneuma).
Here the Spirit is personified:
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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trettep,
I thought you were done? Did you miss me?
You are correct, at times the holy spirit is personified. That doesn't make the holy spirit a person.
Gen 4:10 At this he said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.
Here blood is personified. Was the blood literally talking?
| trettep wrote: | | Additionally, Jesus told the desciples that God was SPIRIT. If He did such then the disciples must have understood what "spirit" means otherwise the utterance would have been in vain. |
Yes, God is a Spirit. Jesus is now a spirit. The angels are spirits.
Humans have a spirit, or mental disposition that drives them. Humans have a "spirit", which is the life force of lifes breath that keeps them alive.
Again, you are limiting the meaning to your limited comprehention when you choose to.
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(Matthew 5:3) “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.
| trettep wrote: | We are told the poor in spirit are blessed:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
So would that mean the poor in active force? (Same word is used here as for the "Spirit" of the Holy Spirit - pneuma). |
What is your point?
If you wish to continue the discussion then please clarify your answer to make sense. 
What did Jesus recieve here that he proceeds pour out to the disciples?
Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
What did God give Jesus????????????
Your answer indicated it was the Fathers "BEING" that the Father gave Jesus, and Jesus proceeded to pour out the Father's "BEING" on the disciples. In other words, that scripture reads this way to you:Acts 2:33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised "being of the Father" from the Father,
Is that correct? Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Anyone else here received the being of their father? I know I have. Obviously, is isn't a secret or something hidden that we receive from our mothers and fathers their being form the fleshy perspective. But it seems that from the circles of religious discussion many can't comprehend that we can know God and His ways from what is made.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
It is amazing that God gave us physical human reproduction. We didn't invent it. God did! God is showing us by that human reproduction how He makes His Children and therefore, how they receive His "BEING". My dad planted his seed and by that seed I was brought forth from my mothers womb. The Word of God is the Father's seed delivering His BEING and bringing me forth from the womb of the Church. So yes I don't believe the Holy Spirit is some lowered from of a thing called an "active force" or some other blasphemous doctrine that considers it some shadowy unsaluted figure of the Godhead. Obviously, to believe the Holy Spirit is God's Being is a position HIGHLY EXHALTED over anything called an "active force".
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| trettep wrote: | | God is showing us by that human reproduction how He makes His Children and therefore, how they receive His "BEING". |
WHAT??????????????????????? Sperm is not the "BEING" of your father. 
Being born doesn't mean you recieved your father's "BEING".   Can you be like your father? Indeed. Does that mean your father's "BEING" is upon you? NOOOOOO! In your analogy, holy spirit would be the seed that make us like our Father.
Num 11:17 And I shall have to come down and speak with you there; and I shall have to take away some of the spirit that is upon you and place it upon them, and they will have to help you in carrying the load of the people that you may not carry it, just you alone.
God had his spirit on Moses, and took some away to distribute to the 70 others in Num 11:17. It isn't reasonable to believe God is distributing His "BEING" on people.
Holy spirit is what God has, a possesion that He can distruibute to others, not who He is.
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: |
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God IS LOVE. Not God HAS LOVE. One is lesser in meaning than of the other. God gives Love to others so God gives of HIMSELF to others. Like a fire lights a torch the original flame is not depleted because it lights a thousand torches. It still burns as bright as it did before it lit another torch. Using that analogy because I read "early church fathers" used it. Even Jesus gives of Himself (as it was given to Him so He does). We are told to let this mind be in us that is in Christ. Many references. The Spirit what is carried in the seed which is the WORD OF GOD.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| trettep wrote: | | God IS LOVE. Not God HAS LOVE. One is lesser in meaning than of the other. God gives Love to others so God gives of HIMSELF to others. |
Using metaphors is appropriate to get the point across. Yes, love is God's dominant quality, so much so, that it can be said "God is love". Does that mean God is literally the quality of love? No. But when we imitate that love we are imitating our Father.
In your first analogy, holy spirit would be the seed that make us like the Father.
In your second analogy, Jesus is the "the original flame", that we learn from and imitate thus becoming illuminators ourselves.
John 8:12 Therefore Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.”
Matt 5:14 “YOU are the light of the world. A city cannot be hid when situated upon a mountain. 15 People light a lamp and set it, not under the measuring basket, but upon the lampstand, and it shines upon all those in the house. 16 Likewise let YOUR light shine before men, that they may see YOUR fine works and give glory to YOUR Father who is in the heavens.
| trettep wrote: | | The Spirit what is carried in the seed which is the WORD OF GOD. |
The word of God, the Bible, is the product of holy spirit. The Bible is a visible manifestation of that holy spirit's action. However, holy spirit was given to Jesus and Jesus proceeds to give it to the disciples.
Holy spirit is what made Solomon wise.
Holy spirit is what made Samson strong.
Holy spirit is what gives us help to be imitators of God, and of Jesus.
Gal 5:22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Look at what TBAX is saying. He is essentially saying that we shouldn't actually take it literally that God IS Love.
1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Some would say that is just a metaphor that we shouldn't take it literally.
I do take it Literally. What wonderul news!
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:51 am Post subject: |
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trettep,
Hi,
| TBax wrote: | | Using metaphors is appropriate to get the point across. Yes, love is God's dominant quality, so much so, that it can be said "God is love". Does that mean God is literally the quality of love? No. But when we imitate that love we are imitating our Father. |
| trettep wrote: | Look at what TBAX is saying. He is essentially saying that we shouldn't actually take it literally that God IS Love.
...
I do take it Literally. What wonderul news! |
Now I understand our difference clearly.
2 Sam 22:32 For who is a God besides Jehovah,
And who is a rock besides our God?
Do you believe God is a literal rock as well?
Heb 12:29 For our God is also a consuming fire.
Do you believe God is a literal fire as well?
1 John 1:5 God is light
Hmmm?
You really should look into understanding literary tools like metaphors.
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Only physical things are used as metaphors not Spiritual things in scripture. Of course Rocks are metaphors but not LOVE which is Spiritual. Jesus has spoken earthly things that we may know Spiritual (Heavenly) things. So anytime we see a reference to something physical that Jesus spoke of then we must know the Spiritual implications of such. Jesus said to bring a sword and Peter responded that he had two and Jesus said it is "enough". Peter made the mistake to believe that when Jesus spoke of physical things to put his trust in those things and got rebuked for it by Jesus. Because Jesus never meant to arm yourselves with physical swords.
I know Satan doesn't want me to believe that God actually IS Love.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1940
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Love is a quality or emotion. Love of neighbor motivates us to care for others. Love of God motivates us to obey Him and please Him.
Your explaination doesn't cut it. 
| trettep wrote: | | Only physical things are used as metaphors not Spiritual things in scripture. Of course Rocks are metaphors but not LOVE which is Spiritual. |
Metephors aren't limited like you say.
For instance, if I said "Hitler was hatred", that doesn't mean Hitler was literally the quality of hatred, but that quality defined his actions toward inocent people. |
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