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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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 Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | trettep wrote: | | What saves you and is required of you for salvation is to do what JESUS does. Some are decieved (sic) into believe (sic) that NO WORKS of ANY kind are required to be saved. The scriptures don't support such an ascertion (sic). |
| trettep wrote: | | They do support the ascertion (sic) that OUR works are NOT required to be saved. |
You really don’t see that these two statements contradict one another? 
Yehu |
No, I don't see any contradiction. I've stated that the scriptures do ASCERT that OUR works are NOT required to be saved but they do ASCERT that WORKS are required to be saved. Those works that are required to be saved are His (Jesus') works done thru us.
Paul |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Trettep, I understand you are trying to make a distinction between our works as a man and our works in Christ, the trouble is that in both cases you are referring to a christian and there is no such distinction, or am I misunderstanding you still?
You seem to be trying to harmonize scripture that is confusing in your mind, but in reality it already harmonizes. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | Trettep, I understand you are trying to make a distinction between our works as a man and our works in Christ, the trouble is that in both cases you are referring to a christian and there is no such distinction, or am I misunderstanding you still?
You seem to be trying to harmonize scripture that is confusing in your mind, but in reality it already harmonizes. |
No confusion here JimD. Paul says that eternal life is rendered based on works in Romans 2:6 -7:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
To have immoratilty and eternal life is to be SAVED. So Paul is telling us that our salvation is based on works. Yet we also read from Paul the following:
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Those verses seem to be a contradictions but when we take all the message of the scriptures what we can conclude is that Jesus owns the works of righteousness that we may perform. So if I do something GOOD then it isn't me who does it but Jesus is the one that has that credit for the Good works that I may do. It is Him who destroys sin in my very body of flesh. He saves me by working righteousness thru me.
The analogy of the branches and the vine picture this perfectly.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
So we can't do Good works (bear fruit) unless we are in the vine.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Again, we can't do Good Works apart from Him (the vine)
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Again, if were not in Him we do not bear fruit. Now think about how a branch produces its fruit. Can it produce fruit of itself or does it need the vine? Of course it must have the vine. The vine is producing the fruit via the branch. In the same way it is Jesus that produces our Fruit of Salvation via us.
A tree is of the same as a vine. Consider this verse:
Mat 12:33 ¶ Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
Now if a tree is known by his fruit. Then consider that if we are branches in the vine then the fruit of the vine would be those fruits of the branch.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
Hi, 
| Jim wrote: | | Can you see what Yehu is saying in his post above? Please explain. |
We seem to be going in circles. I already explained the seeming contradiction, and you agreed. Without works faith is dead. Therefore works are necessary in order to have faith, thus be saved. We cannot earn salvation as it is a gift given by means of faith. The works we do are because of that faith, yet we are only doing what we are suppose to. Conversely, if we practice works that betray such faith we are not saved.
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: |
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TBax, You are right, we are going in circles, sounds like a debate over which came first, the chicken or the egg  . You are saying that we must (as in working off a debt) work to be saved, and I am saying that we love to work because we have been saved. Surly you can see there is quite a difference in the way we see salvation.
Trettep clouds the issue even further by suggesting a Christian can do good deeds (of their own) or good deeds (of Christ).
I doubt if these differences in understanding will cause any of us to be lost because hopefully we are all trusting in Jesus to save us.
It does seem that all through the Bible, man thinking that he had to do something besides trust in God for salvation caused a lot of problems. In other words, trust in God for salvation, and while you are doing that, and because of that, try to be as good a witness of him as you possibly can. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: |
Trettep clouds the issue even further by suggesting a Christian can do good deeds (of their own) or good deeds (of Christ).
I doubt if these differences in understanding will cause any of us to be lost because hopefully we are all trusting in Jesus to save us.
It does seem that all through the Bible, man thinking that he had to do something besides trust in God for salvation caused a lot of problems. In other words, trust in God for salvation, and while you are doing that, and because of that, try to be as good a witness of him as you possibly can. |
JimD, Paul says the following here:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
It is by works (deeds) that determines whether you will receive eternal life.
Obviously, we must embrace those statements. I know it contrary to many protestant teachings to think that in some way we must produce fruit to be saved. But I would argue those that protestant teachings have errored in their understanding of God's Holy Word as delievered by the Christ and His Apostles. Again, I believe their message says that of ourselves (our works) can no man be saved. But I don't believe that excludes ourselves doing work. I believe it is a references to the types of works by which we belong to which are those works are darkness and evil that cannot save us. But those in Christ are the branches that bear fruit towards salvation.
Paul |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
Hi,
| Jim wrote: | | You are saying that we must (as in working off a debt) work to be saved |
Well that explains why we are going in circles. You aren't paying attention.  It is in no way "as in working off a debt". It is works motivated by faith. If we truly have faith in Jesus, that will effect every aspect of our lives, and our works will show that. Conversely, if we practice works that betray such faith we are not saved.
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Rom 2:6 And he will render to each one according to his works: 7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; 8 however, for those who are contentious and who disobey the truth but obey unrighteousness there will be wrath and anger, 9 tribulation and distress, upon the soul of every man who works what is injurious, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
If you do not have works of faith, you do not truly have faith. If you practice the work of the flesh you do not truly have faith.
Last edited by TBax on Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Trettep,And TBax,It could be that being human we tend to focus on deeds, instead of what proceeds them. It seems to me the critical issue is the belief or unbelief that proceeds the deeds that is the prominent thing that God is concerned about, and not the deeds themselves. In reality (all) our deeds are very imperfect.
I keep hearing you make a distinction between the lost and the saved. Just for the record do you consider me to be saved? |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax, when you say (must) to me you are saying we are forced, and being forced it is not done out of love, and of course negates the relationship of love. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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JimD,
Hi,
Indeed faith must precede works. No problem there.
Rom 2:6 And he will render to each one according to his works: 7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; 8 however, for those who are contentious and who disobey the truth but obey unrighteousness there will be wrath and anger, 9 tribulation and distress, upon the soul of every man who works what is injurious, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
If you do not have works of faith, you do not truly have faith. If you practice the works of the flesh you do not truly have faith. Jesus showed that by their fruits you would recognise his true disciples as opposed to those who claim to be yet are not.
| JimD wrote: | | Just for the record do you consider me to be saved? |
Can of worms! God is the judge.
That entail having accurate knowledge, dedicating your life to God, and being baptized in symbol of that dedication.
The ark was a symbol of Noah's dedication. Noah's dedication to God, his obedience saved him. For us that which corresponds to this is baptism.
And we need to endure to the end to be saved.
Matt 24:13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.
| Jim wrote: | | TBax, when you say (must) to me you are saying we are forced |
What? Please be more specific.
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | Trettep,And TBax,It could be that being human we tend to focus on deeds, instead of what proceeds them. It seems to me the critical issue is the belief or unbelief that proceeds the deeds that is the prominent thing that God is concerned about, and not the deeds themselves. In reality (all) our deeds are very imperfect.
I keep hearing you make a distinction between the lost and the saved. Just for the record do you consider me to be saved? |
It is the VERY DEEDS by which one will receive LIFE. I would say that should be extremely important for all of us to understand. It is no wonder that Paul says we should provoke others unto Good works.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Paul |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | TBax said: Jesus showed that by their fruits you would recognise his true disciples as opposed to those who claim to be yet are not. |
True,that is how we recognise true disciples, but is God as limited as we? Can he recognize a true disciple when he first chooses to have faith in him?
| Quote: | | JimD wrote: | | Just for the record do you consider me to be saved? |
Can of worms! God is the judge. |
I am not asking for final judgement of course, just your opinion. You do not seem to mind insinuating your opinion, but that is just a fancy dance around what you think.
| Quote: | TBax said:That entails having accurate knowledge, dedicating your life to God, and being baptized in symbol of that dedication.
The ark was a symbol of Noah's dedication. Noah's dedication to God, his obedience saved him. For us that which corresponds to this is baptism. |
Accurate knowledge? Careful you could be condemning yourself. What about all those who have lived and died on this planet without having access to accurate knowledge?
Was Noah unsaved before he built the ark?
Please tell me you are not of those who believe you must be baptized to be saved, I did suspect this was what was driving your belief system, for shame, for shame.
| Quote: | | Jim wrote: | | TBax, when you say (must) to me you are saying we are forced |
TBax said:What? Please be more specific. |
This is as specific as I know how to be. |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Jim said: when you say (must) to me you are saying we are forced |
| Quote: | | TBax said:What? Please be more specific. |
Maybe this will help explain:
Your view is: God is saying to us, I will love you if you will love me.
My view is: God is saying to us, I love you and will help you grow in your love for me.
I hope you understand these are very different ways of seeing God. Your way, Gods love is conditional, the other way his love is unconditional. Both of these views presuppose that we have already chosen to submit and commit to God through Christ. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
Hi,
| Jim wrote: | | True,that is how we recognise true disciples, but is God as limited as we? |
Definitly not. However, God, in His infinite wisdom, provided his word to clear things up. His word shows:Rom 2:6 And he will render to each one according to his works:
If that weren't true God wouldn't have said it.
| Jim wrote: | | Can he recognize a true disciple when he first chooses to have faith in him? |
Indeed! And God recognizes that that individual will do works to back up such faith. That faith WILL effect that persons life coarse. If it doesn't he doesn't truly have faith.
| Jim wrote: | | Accurate knowledge? Careful you could be condemning yourself. |
You don't think that is necessary?
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge;
Accurate knowledge is necessary. 
| Jim wrote: | | What about all those who have lived and died on this planet without having access to accurate knowledge? |
Acts 24:15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
Those who died who didn't have the opportunity will be given one.
| Jim wrote: | | Was Noah unsaved before he built the ark? |
He wouldn't have lived through that time if he didn't complete the ark. His obedience, his works, kept him alive.
| Jim wrote: | | Please tell me you are not of those who believe you must be baptized to be saved, I did suspect this was what was driving your belief system, for shame, for shame. |
1 Peter 3:21 That which corresponds to this is also now saving YOU, namely, baptism,
Yes. For shame for one of us. 
| Jim wrote: | | This is as specific as I know how to be. |
What was the quote you are refering to where I said "must"?
| Jim wrote: | | Your view is: God is saying to us, I will love you if you will love me. |
My view is, if we love God we will observe what He tells us. Same with His Son. If we love Jesus, will observe what he has told us. Our works will reflect that love.
John 14:15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments;
God loves all of mankind in that He gives all an opportunity to recieve salvation. God doesn't love all mankind in that He will save them regardless of their actions.
Rom 2:6 And he will render to each one according to his works:
| Jim wrote: | | Your way, Gods love is conditional, the other way his love is unconditional. |
Salvation is conditional!
John 3:36 He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| TBax, they say iron sharpens iron, but I am beginning to doubt it, O-well, there is always the entertainment value. |
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