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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 436
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: |
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[Man o man, how difficult it is to communicate, so I will just ask you strait out, can a person who has chosen to believe in God for salvation, later on choose not to believe and be lost?
| Quote: | Zaterus said:
I really am not dealing with the saints of the old testament in this thread. I am dealing with us today. What did I say that made you think I was saying that works had merit toward salvation at any time? |
You did not say anything that made me think you believed that.
You did make me think you believe that a believer in the OT could become an unbeliever but today we cannot.
PS does my signature look familiar?
Thanks for the idea  |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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[quote="JimD"][Man o man, how difficult it is to communicate, so I will just ask you strait out, can a person who has chosen to believe in God for salvation, later on choose not to believe and be lost?
| Quote: | Zaterus said:
I really am not dealing with the saints of the old testament in this thread. I am dealing with us today. What did I say that made you think I was saying that works had merit toward salvation at any time? |
You did not say anything that made me think you believed that.
You did make me think you believe that a believer in the OT could become an unbeliever but today we cannot?
Last edited by JimD on Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2189
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Jim,
I think I understand. Are you more or less asking whether I think it's once saved always saved or not?
Whether it is would depend on the answer to the question wilber asked. Strictly speaking, I don't believe in once saved always saved. Salvation is by faith. If no faith is present, neither is salvation. I differ with some in that I don't believe works are a yardstick by which to measure faith.
However, if after the parousia the law is passed away, and it was by the law that sin sprang to life, so therefore sin has passed away, then I wonder if it's possible to be separated from God anymore. And if it's not, then it would not be possible to be lost. I asked myself these questions one day several years ago, but I cannot say I have arrived at definite answers. I know some preterists lean one way on this, some the other. I suppose I should read what they say, to get further input. I did read Ed Stevens' book on eternal punishment but didn't think many of the arguments for eternal punishment in there had much weight. |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Zathrus said:
I think I understand. Are you more or less asking whether I think it's once saved always saved or not? |
Yes.
| Quote: | Zathrus said:
Strictly speaking, I don't believe in once saved always saved. Salvation is by faith. If no faith is present, neither is salvation.I differ with some in that I don't believe works are a yardstick by which to measure faith. |
Right on!
| Quote: | Zathrus said:
However, if after the parousia the law is passed away, and it was by the law that sin sprang to life, so therefore sin has passed away, then I wonder if it's possible to be separated from God anymore. And if it's not, then it would not be possible to be lost. |
It is my understanding that the law is done away with at the pariousia,( actually at the resurection) only in the sense that those who choose faith in God are not saved by it. I think this is true for everyone, from Adam to the end of time.
Those who do not choose faith in God for salvation, on the other hand , are under the law.
Christ came to fulfill the law, so obviously it was not litearally done away with, it is still a guide for us and them, but we nor they are judged by it, if living in faith.
God seemed very displeased with them for breaking the law, but I think the root of this is that when they would begin to trust more in their keeping the law than in their faith in him. Just like Adam and Eve when they began to think they needed to (do) something to be righteous in their own eyes.
In other words, when one looses sight of the fact that they are saved by grace through faith and thinks they are saved by their own works and righteousness they are entering into unbelief and God is indeed very displeased.
Those who have faith as their primary thing but still believe works have some merit for salvation are probably not in unbelief yet, but this is a step in that direction.
I have a lot of doubts about covenant theology, but will get into that later. I will just say now that I do not think anything basic has changed since day one.
Sincerely, JimD |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1922
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
You curiously accuse me of not displaying integrity??? 
Your responce shows you don't have a clue about the logic of my post. 
Right after you give another NON-ANSWER, you then prove you fail to see the logic of my conclusion to your false statement "The wide road isn't even there anymore."
| Zathrus wrote: | | I have said I do not know of a reason why God would still be destroying people if His final Judgment is accomplished. |
You cannot understand that if the wide road to destruction is gone then nobody can be on it, therefore all things become pointless as no one will be destroyed.  Do you get it?
Then instead of understanding that your "context" was in error, you assume Peter is in error with no explanation. You understand Peter contradicts what you said, hence your "trump" statement. You discount Peter's words instead of understanding your context was wrong about Rom 2:6.  If you choose to be so obtuse so be it. I know you have it in your power to rise above that. Perhaps your pride is keeping you from being honest here. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | Brother Bax, you're not even trying to show the least bit of integrity here. |
Do you know what irony is Zathrus? I find it hallarious that people feel justified to make such basless accusations about me when their words apply directly to them.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Nor are you being the least bit convincing. |
You are correct about that. You can nullify or ignor whatever scripture you choose. If the scriptures won't convince you nothing will.
Also, Peter disproved your your attempt at context at Rom 2:6.
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
Rom 2:7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good;
Your whole attempt to explain the context of Rom 2:5-10 is in extreme error, both by your words and by Peter's mouth. I can explain how your words are in error in another post. For now deal with what is here.
Try to consider the scriptures instead of foolishly dismissing them because it doesn't fit your erroneous attempt at context.
If you want to see how your context was in error I will be happy to show you. In short, you begin with false premises and borrow context from later verses. HINT: During the Christian era the Mosiac Law wasn't considered "the truth". |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | TBax quoted this scripture:
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
Rom 2:7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; |
Do you see a contradiction in this scripture and the one i quote below? Please explain.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Thanks, JimD |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1922
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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JimD,
Hi,
Works of the Mosiac Law cannot make us righteous. Therefore no one has a reason to boast. Faith is what saves us. Faith moves us to do works. If we do no works we have no faith.
(James 2:26) Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
I see no contradiction. When Paul speaks of works of the mosiac law he is not saying we aren't to try to do what is right. Again, if we do what is right, we have no reason to boast, for we just did what we were suppose to. However, if you do not try to do what you are suppose to you are showing your faith is dead or doesn't exist.
That is in perfect harmony with Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
Rom 2:7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good;
Later. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2189
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Then instead of understanding that your "context" was in error, you assume Peter is in error with no explanation. You understand Peter contradicts what you said, hence your "trump" statement. You discount Peter's words instead of understanding your context was wrong about Rom 2:6. If you choose to be so obtuse so be it. I know you have it in your power to rise above that. Perhaps your pride is keeping you from being honest here. |
TBax, I don't know where you're getting that I think Peter is in error. The only error I have pointed out is the doctrine of the Witness organization.
Peter does not contradict what I said. Your interpretation, that he is saying God will save only those who do good works, contradicts scriptures which I have merely read for what they say. I cannot help that you have a problem with what scripture plainly teaches.
TBax, I refuse to get into a game of "I know you are, what am I?" with you. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1922
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax, I don't know where you're getting that I think Peter is in error. |
I already explained this. You understand Peter contradicts what you said, hence your "trump" statement. The context of that verse doesn't allow you to alter the meaning of what Peter said.
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
There are only two options here. Either Peter was talking about "works of the mosiac law" which we know wasn't the case. So that leaves one option, he was saying these "works of righteousness" were "works of faith"!
| Zathrus wrote: | | I cannot help that you have a problem with what scripture plainly teaches. |
Again, irony.  Which of us shows he denies faith without works is dead? Which of us judge people for having works of faith? Which of us attempt to alter scriptural context so the following becomes meaningless?
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Do you know what "accurate knowledge of the truth" is? That would include understanding we are not under the mosiac law but a better covenant, yet we cannot practice works of the flesh, among other things.
(Gal 5:19-21)19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
Just like someone else I am talking to, you have a house of cards and you do not want them to fall down, so you refuse to face the truth of scripture.
Zathrus, you are an extremely intelligent person. Since you at times appear obtuse, it must be self willed in your desire to be correct. That would be extremely dangerous for you, and those who listen to you. Sorry if that offends you, but your dodging of points or questions makes it appear you cannot answer so you switch tactics. |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | TBax said:When Paul speaks of works of the mosiac law he is not saying we aren't to try to do what is right. |
Very true, but he is saying that trying to do what is right is not what saves us.
| Quote: | | TBax said: There are only two options here. Either Peter was talking about "works of the mosiac law" which we know wasn't the case. So that leaves one option, he was saying these "works of righteousness" were "works of faith"! |
Very true, but can you see, the faith is what saves us, not the works.
I find it very significant that you use the word trying when referring to doing good deeds. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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What saves you is not doing what YOU want to do or doing things according to the letter of the LAW. What saves you and is required of you for salvation is to do what JESUS does. Some are decieved into believe that NO WORKS of ANY kind are required to be saved. The scriptures don't support such an ascertion. They do support the ascertion that OUR works are NOT required to be saved. In fact doing our WORKS will works against us being saved. Anyone that HAS CHRIST has the POWER unto SALVATION to perform what is righteous though their own works are filthy before God. And as Paul tells us it is our very works by which we will be judged to receive ETERNAL LIFE.
So what this means is that when you perform that which is righteous it isn't you that performs them but Christ in you that performs them and anyone that has Christ performs them. There is none that have Christ that doesn't perform them. Branches in the vine bear fruit though that fruit is of the vine. Any that branch that doesn't is pruned from the vine.
Paul |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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What must one do to be saved?
Here are a couple of JW testimonies that give insight as to what the upper eschlon of the JW's expect of the rank and file.....
Regarding apparent JW administrators known as Circuit Overseers......
| Quote: | | They come in, make us feel guilty that we aren't going out in service enough, not enough hours, bookstudies etc, etc, etc. They constantly make us feel like we are not worthy, make us feel guilty. The make us feel that we are not serving God unless we go to meeting service, knock on doors with a sermon, place magazines. Success to them is all about the numbers. CO's come in, make all kinds of waves in our already complicated lives, (work for a living, time with kids, time with wife, household responsiblities, meetings 3-5 times a week, WT rag, KM, TMS) after all the stuff we do, they still come in and make us feel guilty. So yeah its the same old same old, thats why your friends are acting different. |
| Quote: | The truth is that the WTS. has and always will be a corrupt commercial venture that was deliberately orchestrated with the intension of utilizing and manipulating the belief in the Bible to market its published literature. There is nothing spiritual or righteous about that is there, they indeed use mind control techniques on the people that get interested in them and eventually get them to promote their sales. To me its just commercialism with a religious flare, thats all.
Circuit Overseers are just are middle management marketing executives for the Publishing house, and that is essentially their responsibility within the organization. |
| Quote: | I think they forgot a few scriptures that say God judges us by our hearts, not by actions.
I was told once that you do not get Jehovahs spirit unless you are knocking on doors. That was about 1 month before leaving the org for good. |
Rather insightful, I must say.
As I understand it these folks have to purchase, from the organization, the publications they hand out. Sound's a bit Amwayish! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1922
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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JimD
| Jim wrote: | | Very true, but can you see, the faith is what saves us, not the works. |
Very true. Can you see that faith without works is dead?
No one earns salvation, but without works faith is dead.
Just because we cannot earn salvation doesn't mean we aren't to try to do what is right.
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2407
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| trettep wrote: | | What saves you and is required of you for salvation is to do what JESUS does. Some are decieved (sic) into believe (sic) that NO WORKS of ANY kind are required to be saved. The scriptures don't support such an ascertion (sic). |
| trettep wrote: | | They do support the ascertion (sic) that OUR works are NOT required to be saved. |
You really don’t see that these two statements contradict one another? 
Yehu |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 436
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: |
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TBAX said: Can you see that faith without works is dead? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | TBax said:No one earns salvation, but without works faith is dead. |
Very true.
| Quote: | | TBAX said:Just because we cannot earn salvation doesn't mean we aren't to try to do what is right. |
Very true.
Can you see what Yehu is saying in his post above? Please explain. |
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