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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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 Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | You sound like a Universal Salvationist. Is that true? |
You became acquainted with where I'm at theologically in my "Got a Visit from My Friendly Local Witnesses!" thread. |
What does that mean? You can't answer that concisely?
Are you or aren't you? What are you afraid of?
EDIT FEB 16--
I reviewed that section you mentioned, and was reminded of your preterist perspective.
You appearently don't believe any prophesy has a future fulfillment. Therefore there is no future fulfillment of God judging mankind according to you. Is that true?
Also, since you mentioned "the wide road to destruction no longer exists", that led me to think you believe no one will recieve destruction at this point. Was that true? You speak in vague shadows and make few things clear, as was evident in that "Got a visit" section you mentioned as well. --
After I asked you a few questions you answered none.  Did you change your view?
| Zathrus wrote: | | The wide road isn't even there anymore. |
Where do you get that? Scriptures please. 
Jesus said "many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,". So where are they if the other road is gone? Scriptures please.
Now when I say "scriptures please" that doesn't mean to provide scriptures and explain something else. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | He talked about a wide road that leads to destruction. Well in light of what He says also in this passage, that must be the road of trusting in one's own righteousness. |
Does that mean you no longer believe "The wide road isn't even there anymore. "???
I don't mind people making corrections, but for the sake of clarity please specify when you change your mind. 
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| Quote: | 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. |
Some who claim to follow Jesus aren't actually following him. Why? Because they are not DOING the will of his Father. By their friuts you will recognize them! They weren't DOING the proper things. DOING indicates works! Yes, false religions claim to do things in God's name, or in the name of Jesus, like the crusades or the inquisitions, or other powerful works, yet their fruitage proves who they are.
Matt 7:18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.
Both produce fruit, or works. Christians need to produce fine fruit.
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
Rom 2:7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; Bold mine.
Fine fruit!!!
| Quote: | 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. |
Those listening to Jesus' teachings and DOING them have a solid foundation!
Those hearing Jesus' teachings and NOT DOING them have a weak foundation that will collapse the structure.
To be clear, the truth involves learning and DOING, or works.
Your twisting these scriptures to your bias is quite entertaining. These are not about "doing works or not doing them". They are about learning and displaying fine fruitage, which includes works "the will of Jesus' Father." Such works include the preaching of the kingdom and "works that befit repentence".
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | Oh? Do you agree with this one?
KJV John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. |
Yes, I do. |
Then why do you assume the ones doing those works, specifically the preaching of the kingdom, are trying to earn righteousness??? 
Last edited by TBax on Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus, great teaching! Could I get you to give more detail on this particular quote by you?
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
| Quote: | Zathrus said:
Read those two verse carefully. Understand: if one can be unsaved by one's bad works, as some of traditional Christianity teaches, then it follows that one was saved to begin with by good works. If one is saved by good works, then it is not through the cross, not by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
OTOH, if my salvation is by the cross of Christ, and faith in Him, then my works neither saved me, nor can they undo my salvation. My reward is reckoned of grace - it is a gift. It is not a paycheck that I earned. |
Your reasoning above is correct but have you thought about it this way? If one is saved by choosing to believe, which is not a work, can one choose to not believe, which is also not a work, and be lost? I am assuming that God gives everyone the freedom to choose from day one, and as far as I can tell never takes it away, at least not in this life. Sincerely, JimD |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: |
You appearently don't believe any prophesy has a future fulfillment. Therefore there is no future fulfillment of God judging mankind according to you. Is that true? |
True. The great final judgment was the judgment that occurred at the end of the age - the age of the law, bringing it to a close and fully establishing this everlasting kingdom of grace and peace, the new covenant. I believe the old covenant has ended, therefore I believe those prophecies to be fulfilled.
| TBax wrote: | | Also, since you mentioned "the wide road to destruction no longer exists", that led me to think you believe no one will recieve destruction at this point. Was that true? |
It is possible. The things we read in the new testament are about the time then present, including the "many" going down the wide road of destruction. In direct answer to your question, which I actually thought I gave, with scripture, in my last post, the road to destruction is to cleave to the old covenant of the law, trusting in one's own righteousness. The many who trusted in their righteousness and rejected Jesus as savior perished along with what remained of that system. Since it was brought to an end in that generation, as Jesus said, it's not here today for anyone to trust in. People just try to perpetuate elements of a system that has long ago passed away into our day and believe it's still necessary to adhere to them to be righteous. Once these thingswere fulfilled, I do not know of a reason why God would still be destroying anyone.
| TBax wrote: |
You speak in vague shadows and make few things clear, as was evident in that[/color] "Got a visit" section you mentioned as well. -- |
Sorry. They seem clear to me when I read them back. Others here seem to be getting it. But many things in God's Word are not fully clear to me yet. Unlike those who claim to be the only ones with saving truth, I do not claim to have it all figured out.
| TBax wrote: | | Now when I say "scriptures please" that doesn't mean to provide scriptures and explain something else. |
Sorry again. I thought I was examining the passage from which you quoted. As to the broad road leading to destruction and why it is no longer here, as I said above, it is the old covenant of the law. I believe that covenant has ended. Those who trusted in the righteousness of the law rather than Christ reached the end of that road.
| TBax wrote: | Those listening to Jesus' teachings and DOING them have a solid foundation!
Those hearing Jesus' teachings and NOT DOING them have a weak foundation that will collapse the structure. |
Right. And the theme of most all of Jesus' teaching was the soon coming demise of the old covenant system and the nation of Israel, and that only those trusting in Him for righteousness would be saved. The Witnesses don't appear to be hearing that message, preaching it, or doing it. Brother, you would benefit greatly from hearing Jesus' word and doing them.
Sorry I couldn't address the remaining comments in your post, I have to go now. I'll try to get to them later. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Thank you for reminding me of your beliefs. It certainly does make sense as to why and how you view such scripture with such bias. You need to fit all prophesy into the time frame before the end of the Jewish system of things. 
I probably mentioned this before, but you do realize the Apostle John wrote all his books, including Revelation, after that destruction in 70 C.E.? Since your beliefs are such you probably doubt that. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Also, since you mentioned "the wide road to destruction no longer exists", that led me to think you believe no one will recieve destruction at this point. Was that true? |
It is possible. The things we read in the new testament are about the time then present, including the "many" going down the wide road of destruction. |
Do you believe that is true of this scripture as well, only for that time period?
(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
You no longer believe that scripture applies now? Do you not believe the NT is considered as scripture?
If the wide road to destruction is gone then having faith in Jesus is pointless. Becoming a Christian wouldn't be necessary. Do you understand that? Even though you are way off on this, if you were correct and trying to do right things makes someone a worker of Law then that road and the consequences would still exist. Do you understand that? Your teachings contradict themselves. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | People just try to perpetuate elements of a system that has long ago passed away into our day and believe it's still necessary to adhere to them to be righteous. |
If following scripture (NT) makes someone appear to follow Law you truly miss the point. Those scriptures are there for our benefit. To explain them away is irresponsible, and extremely dangerous.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I do not claim to have it all figured out. |
Which is why you cannot harmonize scriptures, and allows you to pass motive judgements as to why people do things like works of faith. You truly do not have things figured out. Which make your teachings extremely dangerous! You accept some scriptures and reject or nullify others. If scripture was only for that time period and if the wide road is gone then scripture becomes pointless for us. Is that how you view it?
| Zathrus wrote: | | I do not know of a reason why God would still be destroying anyone. |
I understand why you say that now. Because you have no guidance because your beliefs nullify scripture for our time period.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Those who trusted in the righteousness of the law rather than Christ reached the end of that road. |
But you said that road could be gone today. If so all action and faith become pointless.
| Zathrus wrote: | | And the theme of most all of Jesus' teaching was the soon coming demise of the old covenant system and the nation of Israel |
The theme of Jesus' preaching was about the kingdom. A kingdom that will fulfill future prophesy like:
Rev 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
According to your teachings such fulfillment becomes impatent. Despite the fact this prophesy was written 20 years after the destruction of the Jewish system in 70 C.E., you would have to believe such things were already fulfilled during that destruction. Yet look around you. Those "former" things haven't passed away. People are in anguish today, yet you believe this scripture has been fulfilled? You believe man will continue to rule himself and God's kingdom will not step in as fortold? You believe the prophesy in Revelation is already fulfilled and God has already brought to ruin those ruining the earth?
| Zathrus wrote: | | Sorry I couldn't address the remaining comments in your post, I have to go now. I'll try to get to them later. |
Yes. You answered the top portion very well. The bottom portion needs to be addressed. Allow me to refreash what I would really like an answer to.
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| Quote: | 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. |
Some who claim to follow Jesus aren't actually following him. Why? Because they are not DOING the will of his Father. By their friuts you will recognize them! They weren't DOING the proper things. DOING indicates works! Yes, false religions claim to do things in God's name, or in the name of Jesus, like the crusades or the inquisitions, or other powerful works, yet their fruitage proves who they are.
Matt 7:18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.
Both produce fruit, or works. Christians need to produce fine fruit.
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
Rom 2:7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; Bold mine.
Fine fruit!!!
| Quote: | 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. |
Those listening to Jesus' teachings and DOING them have a solid foundation!
Those hearing Jesus' teachings and NOT DOING them have a weak foundation that will collapse the structure.
To be clear, the truth involves learning and DOING, or works.
Your twisting these scriptures to your bias is quite entertaining. These are not about "doing works or not doing them". They are about learning and displaying fine fruitage, which includes works "the will of Jesus' Father." Such works include the preaching of the kingdom and "works that befit repentence".
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | Oh? Do you agree with this one?
KJV John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. |
Yes, I do. |
Then why do you assume the ones doing those works, specifically the preaching of the kingdom, are trying to earn righteousness??? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: |
Oh? Do you agree with this one?
KJV John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. |
Yes, I do. |
Then why do you assume the ones doing those works, specifically the preaching of the kingdom, are trying to earn righteousness??? |
The Witness practice of proselytizing door to door is what Jesus meant by the greater works that He said those who believe on Him would do? That is a uniquely Witness perspective.
A bit more of the chapter, for context:
| Quote: | 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. |
I'm sorry, I don't see an indication that His preaching the kingdom is what He was talking about. In fact, it seems to indicate that something else entirely is what Jesus was referring to.
Some more of the chapter:
| Quote: | 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; |
It kinda sound like these greater works which those who would believe on Him would do are the things His disciples would ask Him in His name and He would do.
John 15:24
| Quote: | | If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. |
John 10:32
| Quote: | | Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? |
Jesus' works, which His disciples would do greater ones than He Himself, were miracles.
It is a trademark of apocalyptic religious groups to take passages such as the one in John 14 and twist them so they can teach that their specific religious group is specifically written of in scripture. The Adventists do this, the Branch Davidians did it, and a host of others as well as the Witnesses.
Here is an example of one of these works which the early church was empowered to do in Jesus' name:
| Quote: | 11And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. |
I recall when I attended an authoritarian religious church in some ways similar to the Witnesses, that they preached that God empowered the apostles with power to do these greater works because they were very holy an upright men. This passage in Acts 4 disproves that completely. Jesus gets all the glory. We are, an the apostles were, still just ordinary men which God chose to use.
The Witnesses are not doing the works Jesus spoke about in John 14:12, and cannot claim to be fulfilling it. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
Thank you for reminding me of your beliefs. It certainly does make sense as to why and how you view such scripture with such bias. You need to fit all prophesy into the time frame before the end of the Jewish system of things. |
It's not a matter of what I need. If covenantal transition was the subject matter of prophecy, then it fits into the time from of the transition between covenants.
| TBax wrote: |
I probably mentioned this before, but you do realize the Apostle John wrote all his books, including Revelation, after that destruction in 70 C.E.? Since your beliefs are such you probably doubt that. |
How once again very Catholic of you. I would encourage you to read John A. T. Robinson's work on the time frame of the writing of the new testament, "Redating the New Testament". Robinson sees no reason for believing that any of the new testament was written after 70AD.
I would inform you also that many of the same scholars who say Revelation was written in 96AD are also the ones who claim the gospels were written 100 years or more after Christ lived and were not written by eyewitnesses as the writers claim to be.
| TBax wrote: |
Do you believe that is true of this scripture as well, only for that time period?
(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
You no longer believe that scripture applies now? Do you not believe the NT is considered as scripture? |
Stop and think what you're suggesting here. You and your Witnesses believe that at some time in the future, prophecy will be fulfilled. Do you believe that when that happens, that the meaning of everything written in the Bible will then be irrelevant?
Or do you in your heart really believe that the fulfillment will always be future, and prophecy will never be fulfilled?
You're now latching on to my belief in fulfilled eschatology to dismiss everything I say. Consider the folly of this. I am only standing up for justification by faith in Christ alone, apart from works. That is what you are trying to disprove. Will you try using my eschatological beliefs to dismiss the gospel of salvation through the cross?
The time of the fulfillment of prophecy is irrelevant to the fact that salvation is through the work of Jesus Christ, and is not dependent on our good works. And that is what is being discussed here. Consider which side of that discussion you are taking. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | Zathrus, great teaching! Could I get you to give more detail on this particular quote by you?
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
| Quote: | Zathrus said:
Read those two verse carefully. Understand: if one can be unsaved by one's bad works, as some of traditional Christianity teaches, then it follows that one was saved to begin with by good works. If one is saved by good works, then it is not through the cross, not by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
OTOH, if my salvation is by the cross of Christ, and faith in Him, then my works neither saved me, nor can they undo my salvation. My reward is reckoned of grace - it is a gift. It is not a paycheck that I earned. |
Your reasoning above is correct but have you thought about it this way? If one is saved by choosing to believe, which is not a work, can one choose to not believe, which is also not a work, and be lost? I am assuming that God gives everyone the freedom to choose from day one, and as far as I can tell never takes it away, at least not in this life. Sincerely, JimD |
Jim, it certainly was possible prior to the parousia. The writer of Hebrews warned his readers to hold fast the profession of their faith. They were in danger of not enduring until the end because they were considering abandoning faith in Christ for righteousness and returning to the old covenantal order of the law. It's interesting to note that he does not address what happens after the parousia. He is focused on their holding fast to that profession of faith until the Lord's coming.
As for the verses you asked about in Roman 4: 4 and 5, I quoted those because they state it so clearly and simply. Our justification is either by works, or be grace. If it's by works, it's not by grace. If it's by grace, it's not by works. It's that simple. Many Christians believe a convoluted formula which mixes the two and makes some of both necessary. In fact, the writers of the new testament warned the early church that to mix them in this way negated the cross of Christ. If I say works are necessary, then by the same token I'm saying the cross was not sufficient. If the cross was sufficient, works are not part of the equation.
It is far simpler than Christians often make it. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Regarding John 14:12:
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Then why do you assume the ones doing those works, specifically the preaching of the kingdom, are trying to earn righteousness??? |
The Witness practice of proselytizing door to door is what Jesus meant by the greater works that He said those who believe on Him would do? That is a uniquely Witness perspective.
I'm sorry, I don't see an indication that His preaching the kingdom is what He was talking about.
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Are you familiar with what Jesus did while he was here???
(Luke 4:43) But he said to them: “Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this I was sent forth.”
(Luke 8:1) Shortly afterwards he went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,
Are you familiar with the commision he gave his disciples???
(Matthew 28:18-19) And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU.
John 14:23 In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our abode with him. 24 He that does not love me does not observe my words; and the word that YOU are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me.
Acts 1:8 but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”
Did the apostles take this seriously?
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip, who was declaring the good news of the kingdom of God and of the name of Jesus Christ, they proceeded to be baptized, both men and women.
Acts 19:8 Entering into the synagogue, he spoke with boldness for three months, giving talks and using persuasion concerning the kingdom of God.
Acts 20:25 “And now, look! I know that all of YOU among whom I went preaching the kingdom will see my face no more. 26 Hence I call YOU to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men,
Acts 5:27 So they brought them and stood them in the San´he·drin hall. And the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We positively ordered YOU not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name, and yet, look! YOU have filled Jerusalem with YOUR teaching,
Acts 5:42 And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.
It doesn't matter if you agree with what we preach. You obviously won't as your beliefs are askew. The fact is we are following our exempler, we believe and DO the same works, yet you criticise us for that and say we are trying to earn righteousness. You need a better explanation as to why you judge our motives.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Jesus' works, which His disciples would do greater ones than He Himself, were miracles. |
You believe Jesus' Apostles did more miracles then Jesus?????????????????????????????????
That is wacked. What they did do was spread the good news and contacted more people then Jesus.
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The covenantal transition was when Jesus died. At Pentacost of 33 C.E. the disciples recieved the Holy Spirit and the new covenant began. At that point the old covenant was done, obsolete! Remember what obsolete means?
The date of Rev being written is just one proof of how your belief is wrong. 
| Quote: | | According to the earliest testimony, John wrote the Revelation about 96 C.E., approximately 26 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. This would be toward the close of the reign of Emperor Domitian. In verification of this, Irenaeus in his “Against Heresies” (V, xxx) says of the Apocalypse: “For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.” Eusebius and Jerome both agree with this testimony. Domitian was the brother of Titus, who led the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem. He became emperor at the death of Titus, 15 years before the book of Revelation was written. He demanded that he be worshiped as god and assumed the title Dominus et Deus noster (meaning “Our Lord and God”). Emperor worship did not disturb those who worshiped false gods, but it could not be indulged in by the early Christians, who refused to compromise their faith on this point. Thus, toward the close of Domitian’s rule (81-96 C.E.), severe persecution came upon the Christians. It is thought that John was exiled to Patmos by Domitian. When Domitian was assassinated in 96 C.E., he was succeeded by the more tolerant emperor Nerva, who evidently released John. It was during this imprisonment on Patmos that John received the visions he wrote down. |
But if you want to forget the date that is fine. You still didn't answer the relevent points. I will repost my last post and wait for you to answer the points made, while ignoring the date of writing.
| Zathrus wrote: | Stop and think what you're suggesting here. You and your Witnesses believe that at some time in the future, prophecy will be fulfilled. Do you believe that when that happens, that the meaning of everything written in the Bible will then be irrelevant?
Or do you in your heart really believe that the fulfillment will always be future, and prophecy will never be fulfilled? |
What are you talking about? If the prophesy is fulfilled then it is fulfilled. There were prophesies about the messiah coming. When Jesus came they were fulfilled. We no longer wait for those to be fulfilled.
God hasn't brought to ruin those ruining the earth. That has yet to be fulfilled.
| Zathrus wrote: | | You're now latching on to my belief in fulfilled eschatology to dismiss everything I say. |
It's better then dismissing the Bible because of your "fulfilled eschatology"!
| Zathrus wrote: | | I am only standing up for justification by faith in Christ alone, apart from works. |
And dismissing works of faith as works of law.
Dismiss the dates of writing and please give relevent answers to the points in the following.
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Zathrus,
Thank you for reminding me of your beliefs. It certainly does make sense as to why and how you view such scripture with such bias. You need to fit all prophesy into the time frame before the end of the Jewish system of things.
I probably mentioned this before, but you do realize the Apostle John wrote all his books, including Revelation, after that destruction in 70 C.E.? Since your beliefs are such you probably doubt that.
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | Also, since you mentioned "the wide road to destruction no longer exists", that led me to think you believe no one will recieve destruction at this point. Was that true? |
It is possible. The things we read in the new testament are about the time then present, including the "many" going down the wide road of destruction. |
Do you believe that is true of this scripture as well, only for that time period?
(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
You no longer believe that scripture applies now? Do you not believe the NT is considered as scripture?
If the wide road to destruction is gone then having faith in Jesus is pointless. Becoming a Christian wouldn't be necessary. Do you understand that? Even though you are way off on this, if you were correct and trying to do right things makes someone a worker of Law then that road and the consequences would still exist. Do you understand that? Your teachings contradict themselves.
| Zathrus wrote: | | People just try to perpetuate elements of a system that has long ago passed away into our day and believe it's still necessary to adhere to them to be righteous. |
If following scripture (NT) makes someone appear to follow Law you truly miss the point. Those scriptures are there for our benefit. To explain them away is irresponsible, and extremely dangerous.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I do not claim to have it all figured out. |
Which is why you cannot harmonize scriptures. You accept some and reject others. If scripture was only for that time period and if the wide road is gone then scripture becomes pointless for us. Is that how you view it?
| Zathrus wrote: | | I do not know of a reason why God would still be destroying anyone. |
I understand why you say that now. Because you have no guidance because your beliefs nullify scripture for our time period.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Those who trusted in the righteousness of the law rather than Christ reached the end of that road. |
But you said that road could be gone today. If so all action and faith become pointless.
| Zathrus wrote: | | And the theme of most all of Jesus' teaching was the soon coming demise of the old covenant system and the nation of Israel |
The theme of Jesus' preaching was about the kingdom. A kingdom that will fulfill future prophesy like:
Rev 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
According to your teachings such fulfillment becomes impatent. Despite the fact this prophesy was written 20 years after the destruction of the Jewish system in 70 C.E., you would have to believe such things were already fulfilled during that destruction. Yet look around you. Those "former" things haven't passed away. People are in anguish today, yet you believe this scripture has been fulfilled? You believe man will continue to rule himself and God's kingdom will not step in as fortold? You believe the prophesy in Revelation is already fulfilled and God has already brought to ruin those ruining the earth?
| Zathrus wrote: | | Sorry I couldn't address the remaining comments in your post, I have to go now. I'll try to get to them later. |
Yes. You answered the top portion very well. The bottom portion needs to be addressed. Allow me to refreash what I would really like an answer to.
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| Quote: | 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. |
Some who claim to follow Jesus aren't actually following him. Why? Because they are not DOING the will of his Father. By their friuts you will recognize them! They weren't DOING the proper things. DOING indicates works! Yes, false religions claim to do things in God's name, or in the name of Jesus, like the crusades or the inquisitions, or other powerful works, yet their fruitage proves who they are.
Matt 7:18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.
Both produce fruit, or works. Christians need to produce fine fruit.
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
Rom 2:7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; Bold mine.
Fine fruit!!!
| Quote: | 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. |
Those listening to Jesus' teachings and DOING them have a solid foundation!
Those hearing Jesus' teachings and NOT DOING them have a weak foundation that will collapse the structure.
To be clear, the truth involves learning and DOING, or works.
Your twisting these scriptures to your bias is quite entertaining. These are not about "doing works or not doing them". They are about learning and displaying fine fruitage, which includes works "the will of Jesus' Father." Such works include the preaching of the kingdom and "works that befit repentence".
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | Oh? Do you agree with this one?
KJV John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. |
Yes, I do. |
Then why do you assume the ones doing those works, specifically the preaching of the kingdom, are trying to earn righteousness??? |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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JimD said:
If one is saved by choosing to believe, which is not a work, can one choose to not believe, which is also not a work, and be lost? I am assuming that God gives everyone the freedom to choose from day one, and as far as I can tell never takes it away, at least not in this life.
Zathrus said:
Jim, it certainly was possible prior to the parousia.
JimD is saying:
Such a basic thing as choosing or not choosing faith in God changed after the parousia???
You do not consider either one a work, do you?
Let me be clear , I do not consider works to have any merit toward salvation under the OC or the new.
In fact I do not think anything basic changed.
I am saddened to learn that you do. I am interested to know what lead you to this kind of doctrine, if you would elaborate please. Thanks, JimD |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote]
TBax said:
The date of Rev being written is just one proof of how your belief is wrong.
| Quote: | | According to the earliest testimony, John wrote the Revelation about 96 C.E., approximately 26 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. This would be toward the close of the reign of Emperor Domitian. |
TBax, better do some more homework on this one brother.JimD |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Brother Bax, I think I have addressed all of the major points you have brought up. I'm sorry if you are having trouble with the answers. The post that you re-posted for the, what is it, third time now? in your last post has been answered. I got to your quote from John 14 this morning and showed from scripture what Jesus was speaking about. I understand that the Witnesses would like to believe that the Lord had their organization in mind when He made predictions like that, but I'm sorry. You Witnesses don't play as major of a role in the great scheme of things as you think you do. The Witnesses aren't even who Jesus was talking about when He said many would come in His name and say "Lo He is here, or Lo He is in the secret chambers" in the last days. I'm sorry.
There was one thing that did stick out in your last post that I forgot to deal with in my last one. It's allright, it would have made the post excessively long anyway. BTW I'm glad you're not bringing up new points. In some discussion there gets to be such a multitude of questions I can't possibly get to them all. But let me ask you something in response to the passage you quoted below:
| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | And the theme of most all of Jesus' teaching was the soon coming demise of the old covenant system and the nation of Israel |
The theme of Jesus' preaching was about the kingdom. A kingdom that will fulfill future prophesy like:
Rev 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” |
I agree that the theme of Jesus' preaching was the kingdom. I believe that's what I said. Just not in the same words. This new covenant of grace and peace is the everlasting kingdom of God, foretold in the law and the prophets. And this glorious covenant of grace and peace is what I am declaring to you. God has declared peace, He has said "You are my people", He lives among and in us.
Which brings me to my question. In the verses you quoted from Rev 21, do you believe that the tent/tabernacle/ dwelling place of God is not yet with man? Do you believe He does not reside with us? Do you believe He has not called us His people? If not His people, what do you think believers in Christ are? Do you believe God Himself is not with us?
Answer these questions in a straightforward and honest manner, and I will try to answer the question you no doubt will pose to me regarding the next verse you quoted, verse 4. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | JimD is saying:
Such a basic thing as choosing or not choosing faith in God changed after the parousia???
You do not consider either one a work, do you? |
I know in the example I gave of the people the epistle to the Hebrews was written to, they obviously had the choice to go back to the law, the Levitical priesthood and the temple. But we don't have that choice today, do we? And it was the parousia that brought about that change, wasn't it? That's all I'm saying.
| JimD wrote: |
Let me be clear , I do not consider works to have any merit toward salvation under the OC or the new.
In fact I do not think anything basic changed.
I am saddened to learn that you do. I am interested to know what lead you to this kind of doctrine, if you would elaborate please. Thanks, JimD |
Thanks for trying to be clear. I'm still not sure I completely understand though. If you are getting the impression that I think anyone was justified by the works of the law in the days before Christ, or that God really thought anyone could successfully be justified by the law in the days of the Mosaic covenant, then you are misunderstanding me.
I agree that works do not have any merit toward salvation under the old covenant or the new. That is an excellent point. By the law, no flesh was, nor could be, justified. That's one of the most powerful statements in scripture. And Paul and the writer of Hebrews also explained how the saints who were justified in the old testament times were justified by faith, not their works.
I am not sure if you were getting the impression that I think people in old testament times were justified by the works of the law. They obviously were given the law. They were told they needed to keep it without fail to be righteous. But as the writer of Hebrews wrote, the gospel was also preached to them, and the righteous men of the old testament believed and were justified. And as Paul wrote, the righteousness which is apart from works is what was really being given witness to by the law and the prophets.
I really am not dealing with the saints of the old testament in this thread. I am dealing with us today. What did I say that made you think I was saying that works had merit toward salvation at any time? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1942
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | Brother Bax, I think I have addressed all of the major points you have brought up. |
You address some, not all. When you address them you do not answer them all. You use the questions as a launch board to attempt to disprove related points, but don't actually answer the questions, like you did with the John 14 question. That is the problem. As I noticed in the other post you mentioned as well when I asked what you believed on a certain prophetic scripture you would answer by telling your idea of what the JW's believed and how you believed they were wrong. You didn't answer what you actually believed. If you did it was a vague and an impotent fulfillment, like you are currently trying to do with Rev 21.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I got to your quote from John 14 this morning and showed from scripture what Jesus was speaking about. |
Yes and I explained how you were wrong. It wasn't about miracles! If it was then I presume you can preform miracles? If you believe your explanation was reasonable, then that just indicates just how askew your teachings are.
Fortunately for all honest hearted ones, since you pick and choose which scripture will trump other scriptures, and admitted you don't have it all figured out, your judgements mean nothing! And if you are correct that "the wide road isn't there anymore", then your judgements contradict your teachings, and all beliefs become pointless. Do you comprehend that point? Gratefully, God is judge, Not Zathrus!
Regarding Rev 21:
(Revelation 21:1-27) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
| Zathrus wrote: | | Which brings me to my question. In the verses you quoted from Rev 21, do you believe that the tent/tabernacle/ dwelling place of God is not yet with man? |
With individuals who accept the truth, not with mankind as a whole! Do you understand the difference? In verse 1 we see the sea is no more. What is that sea??? Isa 57:20 “But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.
The wicked are gone and then God is with MANKIND. The entirety of them!
Now you answer. The former things, the tears of pain or sorrow, the mourning, the outcry, and death, have they passed away?
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A vital point of logic you seem to like to ignor from the previous post:
| Zathrus wrote: | | The wide road isn't even there anymore. |
If the wide road to destruction is gone then having faith in Jesus is pointless. Becoming a Christian wouldn't be necessary. Do you understand that?
If scripture was only for that time period and if the wide road is gone then scripture becomes pointless for us. Is that how you view it?
But you said that road could be gone today. If so all action and faith become pointless.
Do you get that?
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Also, Peter disproved your your attempt at context at Rom 2:6.
Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
Rom 2:7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good;
Your whole attempt to explain the context of Rom 2:5-10 is in extreme error, both by your words and by Peter's mouth. I will explain how your words are in error in another post. For now deal with what is here. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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JimD, I should add, | Zathrus wrote: | | I agree that works do not have any merit toward salvation under the old covenant or the new. That is an excellent point. By the law, no flesh was, nor could be, justified. That's one of the most powerful statements in scripture. And Paul and the writer of Hebrews also explained how the saints who were justified in the old testament times were justified by faith, not their works. |
The Bible does say in Romans 2:
| Quote: | 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, |
This passage is used by some to suggest that works have merit toward salvation even today. The passage is actually academic because Paul goes on to conclude that the hypothetical person(s) who patiently continue in well doing have never existed. |
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